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Was Jesus killed on the cross?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Yaqub, May 30, 2010.

  1. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِِ الرَّحِيمِ
    In the
    Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

    Verily, all praise belongs to Allah, and may His peace and blessings be showered upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, his companions, and his true followers until the Day of Judgment:

    As a Muslim, I believe that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is the promised Messiah and a true prophet of God. However, I reject the belief that he was killed on the cross, which Christians believe. This is because, if indeed he was killed on the cross and died an agonizing, disgraceful death, than the Jews are justified in rejecting him as the Messiah. That is because, the idea of the Messiah is that he will be a glorious ruler who will bring about a reign of total peace and tranquility. This is why actually many of the Jews reject Jesus (peace be upon him) as the Messiah, because they say he died a disgraceful death on the cross, therefore, how can he be the Messiah which we are eagerly awaiting?

    Of course, as a Muslim, I believe firmly that Jesus (peace be upon him) was saved from the evil conspiracy of his enemies to crucify him, and that God raised him up to Himself, and that presently he is alive in the heavens. Before the Day of Judgment, he will return to the Earth to slay the Antichrist and establish a reign of peace and harmony in the world.

    Christians often quote from their Bible prophecies that predict the Messiah will suffer and die. One such prophecy they quote is Psalm 22, which they claim is a clear prediction of the suffering Jesus (peace be upon him) would endure in his life. The famous quote of "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me", the prophecy that his hands and feet will be pierced, and his garments will be parted, etc., are all apparently found in Psalm 22.

    However, this is also true that if indeed Psalm 22 is referring to the suffering which the Messiah must endure, it is also a prediction that God will save him from being killed by his enemies:

    "But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns." (Psalm 22:19-21)

    Now it becomes clear that if Psalm 22 is a prophecy about the Messiah, indeed he will be suffering at the hands of his enemies, but in the end, God will save him from the sword and from the lion's mouth, that is, from being killed.

    According to the Bible, the Jews challenged Jesus (peace be upon him) to have God display a heavenly Sign in his favor, so that they might believe in him. In response, Jesus (peace be upon him) is quoted as saying:

    "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:39-40)

    Anyone who knows the story of the Prophet Jonas (peace be upon him) knows that he was thrown overboard from a ship and cast into a stormy sea. Logic dictates that he should have died by way of drowning. But, as a Sign of God, he was miraculous saved, and a whale swallowed him up. There too, naturally he should have died, but he miraculously remained alive for three days and nights, until the whale vomited him out onto the shore, all the while he had been alive.

    Jesus (peace be upon him) prophecised that God would display a similar Sign for him as well, but that, instead of being in the belly of the whale, he would be in the heart of the Earth, for three days and nights. Jonas (peace be upon him), was alive throughout his entire ordeal, as a miraculous sign of God. Therefore, in order for the ordeal of Jesus (peace be upon him) to also be a miraculous sign, he too must have been alive. When he was put on the cross and taken down, he must have been alive, despite natural expectation to the contrary, and when he was buried in the cave, he must have been alive, as he mentioned he would be, for three days and nights. And when he finally emerged from the heart of the Earth after these three days and nights, he would be alive, in fact, he would have to have been alive the whole time, just like Jonas was.

    It is for this reason that Allah (God) says in the Holy Quran:

    وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
    And they said (in boast): "Verily, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah." - But they killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but rather, it was made to appear to them as such. And those who are in doubt about it have no knowledge thereof, they follow nothing but conjecture. Of a certainty they killed him not. (4:157)

    So despite the boast of the Jews that they had killed Jesus on the cross, and therefore they are right to reject him as the Messiah and as God's messenger, in reality, he was saved by God, and this is the firm faith of every Muslim.

     
    #1 Yaqub, May 30, 2010
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
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  2. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    I don't know about that. The Bible says pretty clearly Jesus was dead, and that they poked his side with a spear and everything, and that he gave up the ghost.
     
  3. xkatz

    xkatz Well-Known Member

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    Well the Ahmadiyya Muslims believe that Jesus survived crucifixion and traveled to India to search for the tribes of Israel, which is were they claimed he died and that his tomb is supposedly in Kashmir.

    To be honest, it's almost impossible to know his fate since there are many conflicting stories and little evidence of his fate or even of his existence.
     
  4. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    I agree Xkatz, but I think in all liklihood Jesus did die, since I've never known a human to escape death yet. I tend to agree with the gospels on this one except the part about him rising.
     
  5. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    You mean the narrators of the Bible, more specifically, the anonymous narrators of the Gospels of the New Testament, narrate that Jesus "gave up the ghost". However, the words of Jesus (peace be upon him) as quoted in the synoptic Gospels, inform us that the Sign of Jonas will be fulfilled in his case also, i.e., that like Jonas, he will survive being killed, and will be alive, like Jonas, for three days and nights, but instead of being alive in the belly of the whale, the only difference is that Jesus will be alive in the heart of the earth.
     
  6. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    Um the NT quotes Jesus himself as saying: "Father, into your hand I commend my spirit."
     
  7. xkatz

    xkatz Well-Known Member

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    My only problem with the Gospels' or even the Bible's (both and Old and New Testaments) reliability for that matter is that they give a lot of conflicting viewpoints on many things and the historical accounts in these texts don't seem to always match history itself.
     
    #7 xkatz, May 30, 2010
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  8. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    I agree the account of the Bible isn't accurate or perfect, but I'm not inclined to agree the Quran is either. The Quran also has questionable suras, and in fact a specific ayat now called the "Satanic verses" was ommited from the Quran because they were questionable. Some Quran scholars question all the non-Meccan surahs.
     
  9. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Josephus does talk about at least one survivor of crucifixion. He survived because he was taken down prematurely. So it is possible to survive the crucifixion, and we have evidence that at least one person did.

    The fact that Jesus was on the cross for a relatively short time would suggest to some that he could have in fact survived. Also, looking at the idea that Jesus bleed after being stabbed with a spear would suggest that he was not dead at that time as a corpse does not bleed. And not to mention the large quantity of aloe and myrrh that was supposedly used to bury him, which were known to have healing powers, and were not actually used in traditional burials. So there is some suggesting that Jesus could have survived.

    However, looking at who he historically was, and the circumstances leading to this crucifixion, it is more logical to assume that he hung on the cross, possibly for a day or more while awaiting to die, and then after his death, was left hanging on the cross as was the norm.
     
  10. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Most likely, those are not the actual quotes of Jesus (especially since not all of the Gospels state the same). More so, there is little reason to believe that any of the writers, or people close to the writers, were at the crucifixion. Basically, it is nearly positive that Jesus never uttered those words.
     
  11. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    You are exactly right, and that is precisely the problem with the accounts of the crucifixion as mentioned in the New Testament. I mean, for example, as Senedjem has pointed out, according to the Gospel of Luke, Jesus' last words were: "Father, into Thy Hands I commit my spirit." However, according to Gospel of Mark, it is "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?", according to the Gospel of Matthew: "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?". And the Gospel of John claims his last words were "It is finished."

    So such contrary accounts only inform us that the anonymous authors of the Gospels didn't get it all right.
     
  12. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    I said they were not necessarily Jesus' words in a later post agreeing with xkatz, but that doesn't automatically make the Quran correct either.
     
  13. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Bible Prophecy says Jesus not crucified! Lets see

    For the Scripture say, "He will order His angels to protect and guard you"[luke 4:10]

    "And they will hold you up with their hands so you wont even hurt your foot on a stone"[luke 4:11]

    Jesus responded, "The scripture ALSO SAY, you must not test the lord ur God"[Luke 4:12]

    How satan referred to psalm 91 regarding the protection of Jesus?

    Jesus confirmed that Psalm 91 chapter was indeed speaking about him by saying "the scripture ALSO say"

    Also the new testament, again, confirms that Psalm 91 is referring to Jesus christ.

    Psalm 91 clearly says Jesus not crucified!

    Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, n he was protected n he was protected n lifted by GOD ALMIGHTY..

    Jesus cried To God [Hebrews 5:7]

    GOD Almighty will hear his cries (psalm 91:15)

    "SURELY HE WILL SAVE YOU from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence"[Psalm 91:3]

    Meaning God will SAVE Jesus from the deadly pestilence(psalm 91:3)

    "HE WILL COVER YOU with his feathers, and under his wings u will find refuge; his faithfulness will be ur shield and rampart"[Psalm 91:4]

    Meaning GOD almighty will cover Jesus with His Protection (psalm 91:4)

    Gospel says Angels strengthened Jesus

    "An Angel from heaven appeared to Jesus and strengthened him"[luke 22:43]

    "YOU WILL NOT FEAR the terror of night, nor the arrow that files by day"[Psalm 91:5]

    MEANING Christ will then not have any fear to him (psalm 91:5)

    "YOU WILL ONLY OBSERVE WITH YOUR EYES AND SEE THE PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED"[psalm 91:8]

    Meaning Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (psalm 91:8)

    "THEN NO HARM WILL BEFALL YOU, no disaster will come near ur tent."[Psalm 91:10]

    "FOR GOD WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING U TO GUARD U IN ALL UR WAYS"[Psalm 91:11]

    "ANGELS WILL LIFT YOU UP IN THEIR HANDS, SO THAT U WILL NOT STRIKE UR FOOT AGAINST A STONE"[Psalm 91:12]

    "because he lovers me," says the Lord, "I WILL RESCUE HIM; I WILL PROTECT HIM"[Psalm 91:14]

    Meaning God Almighty will send down the Angels to protect Jesus and lift him (psalm 91:11-12, 14)

    An Angel said JESUS "WAS ALIVE" [Luke 24:23]


    "HE WILL CALL UPON ME, AND I WILL ANSWER HIM, i will be with him in trouble, I WILL DELIVER HIM AND HONOR HIM"[Psalm 91:15]

    Meaning Christ's call will be HEARD, and he will be delivered And honored (psalm 91:15)

    JESUS PRAYED AND GOD "HEARD" JESUS PRAYER [HEBREWS 5:7]

    No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified

    ITS CLEAR THAT JESUS CHRIST NEVER CRUCIFIED!

    Another Point:

    "For the LORD loves the Just and WILL NOT FORSAKE HIS FAITHFUL ONES.They will be protected forever,but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off"[Psalms, 37:28]

    yet when Jesus Christ was put one the cross according to Bible.He cried out

    "My God, My God, why do you forsaken me"[Matthew, 27:46]

    How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones???


    Actually they crucified real Jesus?

    Now the christians have four options to choose from:

    1.The persons put on the cross was not real Jesus.
    or
    2.Jesus was not faithful to God.
    Or
    3.Jesus lied that God forsook him.
    Or
    4.Bible is laying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

    So here we see If Jesus crucified then God is liar or Jesus was a false man!!!
     
    #13 Shine_0f_sun, May 31, 2010
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  14. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

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    This is in Scriptural Debates, so this means using Religious Scripture...
    So, yes... According to the New Testament, Jesus did die.


    Whether he did or not in reality (outside of the New Testament), though, we cannot know.
    Now, any other questions?
     
  15. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    Alhamdulillah, my brother, this is another great proof from Bible that God will not allow Jesus (peace be upon him) to die a disgraceful death at the hands of his enemies. The New testament clearly refers to Psalm 91 in relation to Jesus, and Psalm 91 is quite clear as you have pointed out, that God will save Jesus and order His angels to lift him up into their hands.
     
  16. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    So I have a question for Muslims. Do they believe it's not appointed for every person to die, even Jesus?
     
  17. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَآئِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ
    Every soul shall taste death (3:185)

    All of us are mortals, all of us will die, no one has eternal life. Only God is Eternal, and never dies. Jesus (peace be upon him) is a mortal like you and me, when he comes back he will live for another 40 years, die at around the age of 73, and if you want to see his (empty) grave, it is in Madinah, next to the grave of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).


     
  18. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    Yaqub you do realize what you believe about Jesus is pretty well outside the realm of reason right? That a guy can live 30 years or so, be taken from the earth for 2000, and then come back and still be 30 and live to about 73?
     
  19. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Sacrifice of love is never a disgrace, What greater love is there than a man who lays down his life for his brother.If your God never layed down is life for you how has he got such a greater love?
     
  20. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    Perhaps from a naturalist point of view, but the three Abrahamic religions, i.e. Judaism, Christinianity, and Islaam, all contain such beliefs that could be dismissed on similar grounds. After all, according to both Bible and Quran, the great Prophet Noah (peace be upon him) lived for 950 years.

    According to Judaism, Elijah was taken up to heaven some 2800 years ago, and he will return in the future to herald the coming of the Messiah. According to the Shi'ah sect, their 12th Imam went into occultation over a thousand years ago, and he will be returning shortly before the end of the world.

    Of course, according to materialism, all of this is absurd.
     
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