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Was Jesus killed on the cross?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Yaqub, May 30, 2010.

  1. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    ok your first point yes jesus was protected by God and we have biblical passages refering to that, however jesus constantly said in the NT that he was going to die and sacrifice himself.

    For the sword question It was customary for a member of a part to have a sword, when there was a feast, the thing was that that man would sit closest to the door so that if attacks came in he would defend them it was customary, how do you account in teh garden when peter cuts off a person ear jesus Stopped Peter?

    He would have accepted his Prayer but jesus at the end says that if this cup cannot be taken away then your will be done! he was accepting what he had to do at the end.

    he was alive after he died for 3 days!!! your nit picking verses mate im very sorry but this isnt a very good case at all....
     
  2. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    My response to roundsquare:

    According to The commentary of the movie "From Jesus to Christ", the book of Mark is 50 years older than the book of Matthew!!

    This means that the so-called book of Matthew was written 1/2 century after the book of Mark. This means that man's corruption, alteration and fabricated stories have entered this corrupt book, espically that it was obviously written by mysterious third-party person. Matthew 16:21 is clearly a doubtful verse

    For example, we will note that every Gospel begins with introduction "According to...." Such as Saint "The Gospel according to Saint Luke," "The Gospel according to saint Mark," "The Gospel according to saint John". The obvious conclusion for the average man on the street is that these people are known to be the authors of the books attributed to them. This, however is not the case. Why? Because not one of the vaunted four thousand copies existent. It has just been assumed that certain people were that authors. Recent discovers, however, refute this belief. Even the internal evidence suggests that, for instance, Matthew did not write the Gospel attributed to him:

    "..And as Jesus passed forth thence, He (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receip of custom: and HE (jesus) saith unto him (Matthew), follow me (Jesus) and He (Matthew) arose, and followed Him(Jesus)"[Matthew 9:9]

    Did "Matthew" write this about himself? Why then didnt Matthew write for example: "He (Jesus) saw Me, and my name is Matthew, I was sitting at the receipt of custom .." etc etc

    "The Gospel of Matthew, whom we shall continue to call Matthew for the sake of convenience, drew no only up the gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, saying of Jesus) not found in MK that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke"[New American bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4 page 1008]

    NIV SAYS THE ORIGINAL BIBLE WAS LOST!!!

    "Although the book is anonymous, apart from the ancient heading "According to Mark" in manuscripts it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose mothers house (at jerusalem) Christians assembled."[The New American bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, page 1064]


    We read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20


    "Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His gospels probably ended at Mark 16:8 or its original ending has been lost"[From the Niv bible foot Notes [1], page 1528]

    This is very clear that gospel have problem...We can not believe whole words of Gospel..There owners/writers are unknown..


    Matthew 16:21-23 is clearly a man made corruption!!!
     
    #102 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  3. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Jesus said he would spend three days in the heart of the earth. A burial cave would not have satisfied that Sign.
     
  4. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    You would be hard to find too many scholars who agree with that. It is generally accepted that Mark was written around 70 C.E. Matthew was written about 10 to 20 years later, probably closer to 10 years though. Not 50 years as you are claiming.
    First, Mark was written 3-4 decades after Jesus died. So by your logic, that means that man's corruption, alteration, and fabricated stories have entered that corrupt book as well. So any argument you make using the Gospels can be shown to be corrupt and moot.

    You are not saying anything knew. It is not shocking at all. The fact is, every holy scripture, every holy book, is manmade. The Quran even has multiple problems with it. That is what happens when humans write.
     
  5. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    I find it funny that you are claiming that these verses are okay even though you later go on and claim that the Gospels are corrupt and not to be completely trusted. You can't have it both ways.

    More so, the majority of the prophecies were never uttered by Jesus. They were included by the writers of the Gospels. It was a common practice to go search through the scriptures and pick out things that fit for them. The likely hood that Psalms 91 is speaking of Jesus is highly unlikely. As there is no reason for it to be doing so. More so, it was speaking about current times.

    It is talking about no one during that time. It was not a prophecy for the messiah. It was not referring to Jesus. It was referring to people during that time in which it was written. The Gospel writers simply, in order to make it seem like Jesus was fulfilling all of these prophecies, added it in. The fact is, the majority of the so called prophecies Jesus fulfilled never dealt with the Messiah and had already by fulfilled anyway.
    No it doesn't. Your argument is nothing more than a strawman. Matthew and Luke disagree. That is not very shocking. They disagree on many different things. The virgin birth being one. However, you can not discredit one by using the other. It doesn't work like that.
     
  6. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Well...Jesus was protected by God which meaning God saved him!!!


    Jesus never said, he came for Sacrifice!!!
    You are totally wrong..

    "But go and learn what this means: I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE. For i have not come to call the righteous, but sinners"[Matthew 9:13]


    Read "..I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE.."[Matthew 9:13 from NIV]

    "..I Will HAVE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE.."[Matthew, 12:7 from Kjv]

    God clearly says in bible, No man can die for another man sin. Do you think God is a liar??


    "Every man shall die for His Own Sin..." [Duet 24:16]


    Actually God dont like human sacrifice. You guys remember the story of prophet Abraham? God just tested him to sacrific his only son but finally his son never died, so We can tell God dont like human sacrifice!!!

    "Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done"[Mark 22:42]

    note: Meaning of this cup is "the cup of death"

    Jesus submits his will to Father which means he was a righteous man. Bible clearly says God never forsake his faithful ones which meaning God never forsake righteous man.

    "For the LORD loves the Just and WILL NOT FORSAKE HIS FAITHFUL ONES. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off"[Psalms, 37:28]

    How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones???


    as James said righteous man prayers are very powerful...Read my previous post.. I already made it clear

    Jesus bowed down to God Almighty begging Him to save him from crucifixion read matthew 16:39 and God promised us He LIFTS UP THOSE WHO ARE BOWED DOWN, the Lord Loves the righteous so obviously God saved Jesus

    "The Lord gives sight to be blind, the LORD LIFTS UP THOSE WHO ARE BOWED DOWN, the Lord Loves the righteous"[Psalm 146:8]

    "The Lord upholds all those who fall and LIFTS UP ALL WHO ARE BOWED DOWN" [psalm 145:14]


    Do you think God is a great liar??

    NO, NO! GOD NEVER LIAR!!
    Indeed they do blaspheme who say God is liar!!

    The real truth God saved Jesus...

    Jesus did not object to God Almighty's will. This is also wrong according to bible, because again, Jesus cried during the crucifixion "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?"

    REAL JESUS NEVER CAN OBJECT GOD ALMIGHTY'S WILL, SO OBVIOUSLY THEY CRUCIFIED A FALSE MAN OR ITS A CONTRADICTION!!

    According to Gospels Jesus all disciples deserted Him and fled so, they had no any eye-witness from Jesus disciples

    "Everyone deserted him and fled"[mark 14:50]

    The Gospels record that the 12 apostles "forsook him and fled at Gethsemane" (Matthew 26:56)

    Lets see a proof about it:

    It was the 3rd hour, and they crucified him (Mark 15:25)

    It was the 6th hour, and he was not yet crucified(John 19:14)

    Bible have too much contradiction about crucifixion!! Which meaning crucifixion is totally a "Fiction"

    Jesus actually was crucificted, not Not crucifixed!!!

    Angel said what??? Angel said Jesus "was Alive" which meaning Jesus was Alive in tomb. It mentioned whole times of tomb.

    angel never said "is Alive"

    angel never said Jesus Raised

    angel never said about Jesus resurrection from the dead!

    But angel said Jesus "was" Alive!!


    Its very clear in bible.... Angel said, "Jesus was Alive!" which meaning whole times Jesus was Alive.. Angels know better than humans about the real truth!!!!
     
    #106 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  7. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    sigh you know what im just goin to let falling blood deal with you sinch your nit picking what I said and what the bible says:facepalm:

    32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
    Mark 10:32-34


    Jesus clearly states he will die and rise again in three days game set match..
     
  8. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    That is stretching it quite a bit. Especially since on the cross, Jesus supposedly asks why God has forsaken him. The Bible makes it quite clear that while Jesus was on the cross, he claimed that God had forsaken him, and was no longer there.

    Actually you are wrong on this case. Yes, you can take certain texts out of context, and claim they mean one thing, However, the Bible is very clear that Jesus came to the earth to be sacrificed. That he did in fact die on the cross. Lets start:

    Matthew 20:17-19 " And Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside along the way, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify Him. And the third day He shall rise again."

    Mark 8:31-9:1 He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He spoke to them openly. Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. But he, turning around, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you have in mind not the things of God, but the things of men."
    He called the multitude to himself with his disciples, and said to them, "Whoever wants to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? For what will a man give in exchange for his life? For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
    He said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste death until they see the Kingdom of God come with power."

    Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[a] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

    Luke 24:44-47 44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

    45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    If you want, I can go on and on with many different references in the Bible claiming that Jesus did in fact die and that it was predicted and that Jesus himself stated these predictions.
    John 3:16-21, 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

    Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

    John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"

    1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

    Now those are the ones that specifically state the Jesus died for our sins. I'm not even listing the ones that suggest it or imply it by calling him the Savior of the world.
    I don't think that is even logical. That story had nothing to do with God forbidding human sacrifice. I'm sure you could do much better than that.
    It also states that Jesus was willing to die. And that does not mean that God won't allow the faithful to be killed. The fact is, the Bible is very clear on the death of Jesus, as well as many other faithful ones.
    Maybe Jesus simply felt forsaken. But in the end, he wasn't. It was a time of weakness for Jesus.
    If you want, I can pull of verses in which clearly shows that God is contradicting himself. Not meaning God is liar, but that maybe he changes his mind.
    According to what? The Bible, which we are discussing, clearly states that Jesus died. Now, you could make an argument that the resurrection (which you can't have unless one is dead) was God saving Jesus. However, the Bible is clear. Jesus died.

    As far as I'm concerned, he died on the cross, and hung there until his body was eaten by wild dogs, as was the norm.
    That is not Jesus objecting to God's will. That is simply Jesus questioning God and why he would forsake him. Jesus, according to the Bible, was in a weak state, and felt alone. That does not equate to Jesus objecting to God's will.
    First, it was not an objection. Second, you've already stated that the Bible has parts added to it that were false, and that it is not fully trustworthy. Third, there is no evidence that it was a different man other than Jesus. And fourth, there isn't a contradiction in what you're saying. Either way, you fail in this objective.
    Which explains why their would be discrepancies.
    And that is logical how? First you use the Bible to support a point, and then say that it is full of contradictions, making any argument you have, by your logic, moot.

    Also, you clearly don't understand oral tradition. Of course there are going to be discrepancies. That's part of an oral tradition. And how to you suggest that the Quran is any better? Looking at the credibility, it was written by a person claiming to be talking to an angel, and he was illiterate. Not very credible, especially when one considers there is evidence that parts of the Quran were added at later times. Really, the account in the Quran about the crucifixion is no more credible.

    Now, I'm not saying that the the Bible is accurate. However, the Bible is clear that Jesus died. That is what we are discussing in this particular instance. However, all of the evidence points to the fact that Jesus was in fact crucified and died on the cross.
    In correct. The angel stated that after Jesus was supposedly resurrected.
    That isn't logical. The angel said that Jesus was alive. All that one can get from that is that at that particular time, Jesus was alive. It can not be used to state that Jesus was alive the whole time. There is no suggestion about that at all. Especially when it is evident that Jesus was in fact dead. There is no denying that according to the Bible, Jesus died. And then was resurrected later on. Being resurrected clearly means that he was in fact dead at one time.
     
  9. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    thanks fallingblood i had no patience for this guy.
     
  10. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Gospel is totally corrupt because there have too much contradiction, even about crucifixion!!

    Contradiction given by Jesus himself:

    "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is Valid"[John 8:14]

    "If I testify about myself, my testimony is NOT valid"[John 5:31]

    Jesus Quotes Unknown scripture!!

    "Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, STREAMS OF LIVING WATER WILL FLOW FROM WITHIN HIM"[John 7:38]

    There is NO VERSE in old testament about "STREAMS OF LIVING WATER WILL FLOW FROM WITHIN HIM"

    Go and search old testament!!

    Matthew 12:38-40 prophecy clearly says Jesus miraculous sign shall be unto the sign of Jonah which meaning he shall not die unto jonah but Matthew 16:21 says he shall die which is clearly a contradiction..Now few christian can tell 12:38-40 prophecied about time factor But again they fail to realise that it was not 3 days and 3 nights as i proved it before. Read my previous post..

    Gospel showing us too much contradiction what given by Jesus himself which meaning gospel is totally corrupt and untrusted!!

    Contradictories about crucifixion and resurrection in Bible:

    Number 1:

    It was the 3rd hour, and they crucified him (Mark 15:25)

    It was the 6th hour, and he was not yet crucified(John 19:14)

    Number 2:

    Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh, but he doesnt drink(Mark 15:23)

    Jesus is given vinegar, but he doesnt drink(matthew 27:48, Luke 23:36)

    Jesus is given vinegar and he drinks (John 19:29-30)

    Number 3:

    A centurion is cited as saying: "Truely this man was the son of God"(mark 15:39, matthew 27:54)

    A centurion is cited as saying: "Truely this was righteous man"(Luke 23:47)

    Number 4:

    what was Jesus last words?

    Jesus says "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Matthew 27:46-50]

    Jesus called out with a Loud voice, "Father, into ur hands I commit my spirit." when he had said this, he breathed his last[Luke 23:46]

    Number 5:

    The compelled simon to bear the cross of Jesus (Luke 23:26, Mark 15:21)

    Jesus was bearing his cross himself(John 19:17)

    Number 6:

    They put Jesus on the cross(Mark 15:21)

    They put Jesus on the tree(Peter 2:24)

    Number 7:

    note:/u] pls read following verses with the context:

    One women saw 2 angels at the grave of Jesus(John 20:12)

    Two women saw an angel which meaning they saw 1 angel( matthew 28:1-2)

    Number 8:

    Mary the Magdalne And Mary the Mother of James and Joanna Returned back from the grave and told the eleven apostles all of what they saw(luke 24:9)

    Mary the Magdalne and Mary and Salome returned back from the grave, and did not tell anyone anything because they were afraid(Mark 16:8)

    Whole Gospels have too much contradiction about crucifixion. Who First went to Tomb?? 4 Gospel says different name!!!

    John claimed Only Mary Magdalen went to tomb(John 20:1)

    Mark claimed Mary Magdalen, Second Mary and Shalome went to tomb(Mark 16:1)

    Luke claimed At least five women visit Jesus tomb. mary Magdalen, Mary the mother of James, Joanna and other women(Luke 24:10)

    Matthew claimed Two women visit Jesus tomb: Mary Magdalen and another Mary(Matthew 28:1)

    read few comments from christian scholars:

    "The author of Mark, the earliest of the narrative gospels, WAS NOT AN EYESWITNESS: he is reporting information conveyed to him by A THIRD PERSON OR PERSONS, who themselves were quite possible not eye-witness"[Robert Walter funk, The Jesus Seminar, the acts of Jesus, page 4]

    Christians scholar Mack Burton Says, "There is no reference to Jesus' death as a crucifixion in the pre-Markan jesus Material"[Who wrote New Testament? Page 87]


    Seems you are so fool!! Jesus confirmed us Psalm 91 chapter was indeed speaking about him by saying "the scripture ALSO say" Read my previous post!!!
    It was referring to Messiah. David 90% prophecy was referring to the Messiah and that why messiah call as "Son of David"


    you talking totally rubbish!!!
     
    #110 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  11. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

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    Here's a few possible alternatives; I'm no scholar, nor Christian, but I thought I'd point them out.

    There could be something you are missing here, since he didn't use the same words for both parts.

    Two different days, I think; Mark may well be the day after the other.

    Wine vinegar, maybe?
    These say they offered it to him only, not that he accepted.
    Actually, they put it to his lips - if some dribbled into his mouth, from that, did he drink it, or did he refuse it? That could merely be one's perspective.


    Son of God = righteous man. ;)
    Therefore, no contradiction in such a case. (I don't subscribe to the belief of Jesus being the Son of God as in a literal son of God or anything, nor do I believe Jesus is God incarnate. Just a man, a good man.)

    I've heard it was probably a stake, made of wood - the tree could be either a reference to the material, at a guess?

    Just a few possibilities. :)

    Now now, that kind of talk is forbidden here in accordance with Rule 1. Please read the rules and post accordingly.
     
  12. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Jesus false Prophecy according to Gospels:

    Mark 13 chapter:

    1.As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent!!"

    2."Do not see all these great building?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another ; every one will be thrown down."

    3. As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, peter, James, john and andrew arkl him privately.

    4."Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled"

    now 5 to 29 verse says about few prophecy of Jesus..Everyone may check it

    24."But in those days, following that distress, "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

    26.The stars will fail from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    26 "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory

    27 to 29 verse also prophecy

    30.I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THIS GENERATION WILL CERTAINLY NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED.

    That was totally a false prophecy of Jesus!!!

    "I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THIS GENERATION WILL CERTAINLY NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED"[Mark 13:30]

    lets see Luke 9:27:

    "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God"[Luke 9:27]


    Similar to Mark 13:1-37 as shown above, Jesus in Luke 9:23-27 yet makes another Promise that the hour would came before the generation he was living among pass. It is now 2,000 years after Jesus and the generation he was living among is all dead, and yet!!



    Few points to notice:


    1- In Mark 13:4, Jesus begans speaking about the Signs of The Hour. His disciples got anxious and wanted to know when the Hour would come.

    2- Jesus in Mark 13:5-27 began speaking about the false deceivers and false Prophets and other signs.

    3- Jesus in Mark boldly says: "I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THIS GENERATION WILL CERTAINLY NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED"

    We know Jesus disciples have died, and its been now more than 2000 years after Jesus, and still the hours has not come yet.


    "I (Jesus) am coming son. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."[Revelation, 3:11]

    Knowing clearly the verses of Mark 13 and Luke 9:23-27 above, its clear that revelation 3:11 must be in their context..

    mark 13:30 was totally a false Prophecy of Jesus..Cause that generation passed..They all died their nature deaths and non of them saw Jesus coming back!! Its been 2000 years since Jesus came to earth, and he hasn't back yet.


    Jesus prophecied that men of this generation would not pass away without witnessing his second coming and the falling of stars (Mark 9:1, 13:30)

    Jesus That generation already passed!!!


    Why was this prophecy unfulfilled??? Why it was Jesus did not return within the lifetime of his generation???


    "The end of all thing is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray"[1 peter 4:7]
     
    #112 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  13. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Boy do I have my work cut out for me or what! Hardly, as I'm going to sidestep all the immaterial points that have no bearing on the subject matter of whether Jesus was killed. According to the Gospels available to us "Today" Jesus was crucified I don't care what some "lost Gospel" has got to say on the matter. In fact How could I care what a lost gospel has got to say since it's lost, how can anyone know what was contained in it seeing that it is lost.

    No you did "not", did you even read what I wrote about the Psalm 91 issue? I discussed it in my post # 79, follow this link (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2031368-post79.html), there I clearly showed that Psalm 91 is not necessarily about the Messiah and it was linked to the Messiah by Satan, that Jesus quoted another scripture and didn't reject the Psalm doesn't Prove that He accepted it as being about Him. Ignoring what I said won't help you in anyway. Furthermore can you list the names of some Greek/Hebrew bible scholars/rabbi's etc who attribute or have attributed this Psalm to the Messiah?

    It is a Psalm referring to those who put their trust in the Lord.
    Now despite this Psalm saying that children of God will be protected, it is a known fact that children of God have been suffering throughout the centuries, from the prophets to general followers; all the disciples of Jesus for example save John died unnatural/cruel death's. What we have to realize is that a Psalm is to be looked upon as a "mood" of the psalmist, the writer of Psalm 91 may have been saved from some danger and was in a happy mood when he dedicated Psalm 91 to God. He was praising his God for his happy life. In another Psalm we see David weeping to God asking God why he had been forsaken/deserted by God (the same psalm Jesus used on the cross):
    Here's another Psalm:
    As you can see although Psalms 91, Psalms 118 etc speak of God's protection we have many other Psalms as well were God's children, his followers are crying out to God in distress. Why this seeming contradiction?


    Well the Psalms were written by followers of God, like David, moses etc to God. Psalms express the feelings of these men of God, how they view God, Psalms reveals the personal relationship men of God enjoyed with God. For this reason we must be careful to built theology around the Psalms. Therefore when considering a Psalm we must not pull it out of the book of Psalms. We must consider any Psalm within the context of the rest of the bible.

    One website says:
    The same website carries on to say:

    The Website sums up and concludes :
    here's the link to the website Keith Hunt - Psalms - Understanding Them #1 - Page One.

    I won't add anymore as the quotes above are very clear.

    Now just to add a few more things God's prophets, trusted God yet suffered as well, some were even killed. even the Qur'an says that Jews for example killed their prophets. (see 2:61; 2:91; 3:21; 3:112; 3:112; 3:181-183; 4:155; 2:87; 5:70)

    Jesus states that citizens Jerusalem killed certain prophets: Matthew 23:37; and Luke 13:34 which reads:
    other portions of the bible agree with Jesus:
    Uriah is one such prophet that was killed,
    John the baptist (Mark 6:17-29) was another prophet of God that was killed, for other prophets and man of God that suffered see 2 Chronicles 16:7-10; 1 Kings 22:26-7; 2 Chronicles 24:21; Jeremiah 15:10; 18:20-23; 20:1-18

    My last example of a servant of God who suffered is Job: Read what God's Word says about Job:
    Yet job suffered, until he lost all his possessions even his health. Why didn't God protect Job according to Psalm 91, Job was faithful and trusted God, so why did Job suffer so much pain and trouble. God had a reason for the suffering of Job, God allowed Job to suffer to test his faithfulness, to build Job's character
    . God allowed Abraham to suffer as well, and Abraham learned obedience through suffering.

    As we can clearly see from the Bible many faithful children of God suffered and died in their sufferings, even the writers of Psalm therefore you cannot misuse the Psalm's to conclude falsely that it is God's will to never let harm befall his children. Jesus himself said that suffering is not always a result of sin (Luke 13:2-5; John 9:2-3) so even God's faithful children who do all they can to avoid sin can still suffer. According to John 9:2-3 sometimes we suffer so that God can be glorified in out suffering.

    This is a very long response, read it carefully point for point and read it in conjunction with my post # 79.
     
    #113 roundsquare, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  14. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    This is a thread about whether or not Jesus was killed on the cross, not about false prophecies Jesus might have given or about which gospel account came before which one, I will not discuss anything else accept the the thread topic Was Jesus killed on the cross?
     
  15. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    My Response about Luke 24:44-47:

    A serious forgery in Luke 24:44-47 about Jesus "resurrection on the third day" claiming that it was foretold in the OT when it wasn't!!

    Let us look luke 24:46 from Niv bible

    "He told them, "This is what is written: the Christ will suffer and raise from the dead on the third day"[Luke 24:46]

    There is a serious forgery in Luke 24:44-48 it says that it is written in the scripture that Jesus will die and resurrect on the third day. Where in the Old testament do you have that? Show me one old testament verses that prophecied about Jesus "third day resurrection"?

    Anyway the book of Luke is not really authentic.. According to the theologians of the NIV bible, most of the bibles books and gospels were written by mysterious people. No one knows who wrote these books!!

    "The identification of Luke as the author is primarily based on the "we" passages in Acts/u]. (beginning in Acts 16:10) which indicate that Luke was associated with Paul in his ministry and wrote down the account of his activites." [The Amplifed Bible, page 1153]

    The only proof that they have about Luke begin the sole author of his gospel is a weak speculation on "we.


    Response about John 3:16-21, 16:

    There never mentioned Jesus died, nor it says he shall die for our sins but that verse made a contradiction about real eternal life!!

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, and whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternel life"[John 3:16]

    according to christians theory if you believe Jesus died for your sin then you shall get eternal life and christians tell john 3:16

    My question where Jesus said believe me that i shall die for your sin and it can give you eternel life?!!!

    Nowhere in bible Jesus said it.. I am challenging you BUT REAL ETERNEL LIFE JESUS MENTIONED IN MATTHEW 19:16-19

    "Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"[Matthew 19:16]

    Meaning a Rich man came to Jesus to ask about Eternal life

    "Why do you call me good" Jesus replied. There is only One who is good. IF YOU WANT TO ETERNAL LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS"[[Matthew 19:17]

    Here Jesus said do not call me good cause Only God is good.

    And for eternal life you must obey the Commandments of God

    Meaning you must follow old testament to new testament all law for eternal life.


    MY QUESTION: why Jesus did not say there believe that i shall die for your sin and its your eternel life???[/b]


    So its clear according to christians theory John 3:16 is a contradiction with matthew 19:16-19

    AND JESUS NEVER SAID I SHALL DIE FOR YOUR SIN, NOR JESUS SAID YOU MUST BELIEVE IT BUT JESUS SAID OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS WHICH MEANING HE WAS A GOOD TEACHER AKA TRUTH PROPHET!!!
     
    #115 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  16. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    We are not discussing whether or not Luke is an authentic gospel that is not the purpose of this thread, all Gospels record how Jesus was crucified, not only Luke. This is not a thread about eternal life so I won't be dragged into a discussion about that either. The question is WAS JESUS KILLED? and according to the GOSPELS WHETHER THEY ARE FAKE OR NOT, ACCORDING TO GOSPELS JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED ON THE CROSS.
     
    #116 roundsquare, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  17. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    My response about matthew 26:28:

    Matthew 26:28 also one of man made corruption cause its against of Duet 24:16 and matthew 5:17-19 which a clear contradiction in Bible!!

    Old testament clearly says no man can die for another man sin!! And Jesus said no ex law shall be destroy...

    "Every man shall die for His Own Sin.." [Duet 24:16]

    "Think not that i am come to destroy the LAW, or the PROPHETS, I did not come to destroy, but to Fulfil the law" [Matthew 5:17]

    Fulfil means "FULFILLING THE PROPHECY, NOT CHANGING THE OLD TESTAMENT"

    "I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, not one letter, not a DOT, will dissappear from the low until all that must happen has happened"[matthew 5:18]

    "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do SAME will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.."[Matthew 5:19]

    If anyone break only one commandment of God and teach it to other for same to do it then he can not enter heaven according to matthew 5:19

    "..BUT whoever practices and teaches these commands will be Great in the kingdom of heaven"[Matthew 5:19]


    who shall obey all the commandments of God, he shall be great in the kingdom of heaven!!

    Meaning according to Jesus you must follow Old testament to new testament all law.

    My Question what was our Sin and why Jesus said his blood can forgive our sin??

    According to Christians theory we are sin of Adam and only Jesus blood can forgive our sin. Where you got this bible Damn theory? Bible clearly says We are not guilty for the sin of Adam!!

    we are not guilty for the sin of Adam!!

    If you read Ezekiel 18:20 verse then you will see what is real truth!

    "The soul who sins in the the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the farther, nor will the father share the guilt of son.The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him[Ezekiel 18:20]

    Adam is our all Father and we all are his sons. So we are not guilty for the sin of our Father Adam, nor before we was guilty for it. So we see christianity theory is false

    All proving that Matthew 26:28 never came from Jesus himself and its a man made corruption OR a contradiction what given by Jesus himself!!

    My Response about John 1:29:

    Jesus never said anything in John 1:29

    "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"[John 1:29]

    This is obviously false cause Jesus was not crucified..."lamb of God" is a pagan title. John never was pagan..Psalm 20:6 clearly says God saved Jesus

    "Now I know that the LORD saves his Anointed; he answers him from holy heaven with the saving power of his right hand"[Psalm 20:6]


    Note: Meaning of Messiah is "Anointed" or "Anointed one"

    so God saved his anointed king aka Jesus and he never died for our sin, lol even no man can die for another man sin!!

    Response about 1 John 2:2:

    1 John 2:2 never says anything about crucifixion!! I agree with 1 john 2:2 that he is anti-christ who denys the Father and Son..Real truth Jesus not crucified, its not deny.. Lol
     
    #117 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  18. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    We are not discussing whether or not Luke is an authentic gospel that is not the purpose of this thread, all Gospels record how Jesus was crucified, not only Luke. This is not a thread about eternal life so I won't be dragged into a discussion about that either. The question is WAS JESUS KILLED? and according to the GOSPELS WHETHER THEY ARE FAKE OR NOT, ACCORDING TO GOSPELS JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED ON THE CROSS.
     
    #118 roundsquare, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  19. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    for get him this guy clearly doesnt know what he is talking about he, grabs from our bible the verses that he wants then says that the rest of the bible is corrupt how can you argue with a person who is willing to be so two faced?
     
  20. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Response about Matthew 20:17-19:

    This is another man made corruption or a false Prophecy of Jesus Because Gospel against of this prophecy. Espically matthew 12:38-40

    lets see few point:

    If Jesus knew that one of his disciples would betary him, why should he say that all 12 disciples would sit upon 12 thrones?(Matthew 19:28)

    If Jesus knew that he was to die on the cross, why did he spend all night prayingin the Garden of Gathsemane seeking deliverance: Father If it is possible may this cup be taken from me?(Matthew 26:39)

    If Jesus belived that his prayer in the Graden of Gethsemene would not be heard, why did he tell this disciples earlier that prayers are answered? Would any of you who are Fathers give your Son a stone when he asked for bread (Matthew 7:9-10) which means that God hears they prayers of man more than a father answers the wishes of his children and Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and it will be opened to you. And whatever you ask in your prayers, you will receive, if you have faith. (Matthew 21:22, John 11:41-42)

    If Jesus knew all along that he was destined to be crucified to death (indeed if that was his purpose in life), why did he exclaim on the cross "My God, My God why why hast thou forsaken him"[Matthew 27:46]


    Even Jesus Another prophecy matthew 12:38-40 also against of Matthew 20:17-19 so its clearly a man made Corruption OR A FALSE PROPHECY OF JESUS.

    As before i proved that Jesus gave us False prophecy in mark 13:30 so Matthew 20:17-19 prophecy also was false. Jesus never crucified but he was Alive unto jonah and that was a miraculous sign.
     
    #120 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
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