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Was Jesus killed on the cross?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Yaqub, May 30, 2010.

  1. logician

    logician Well-Known Member

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    Along with many other gods of mythology.:thud:
     
  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Oh my...such discourse!...and where to begin?

    The Carpenter knew He would die...as He entered the Holy City.
    When He spoke of it, His own disciples made question and were rebuked for their nay saying.

    He went to the Temple and cleared it.
    He was arrested for disturbing the peace...inciting a crowd.
    The pharisees wanted a charge of heresy.
    But it's not the business of Rome to enforce religious law.

    As His trial proceeded, Pilate had Him whipped....39 lashings.
    This is one stroke short of a death sentence.
    40 strokes were considered a sure kill.
    Pilate was hoping the Carpenter would fail at the post.
    That way, no death sentence would be dealt unto the man,
    but the 'problem' might go away.

    Another charge was dealt...that of insurrection.
    Was He innocent? yes.
    He never wanted a crown on His head.

    He had spoke of His kingdom.
    Pilate wanted to know where the kingdom might be.
    Soldiers would have been sent to conquer it.
    He told Pilate (and His disciples) 'it is not of this world...it is within you'...they did not understand.

    The charge was insurrection. The parchment was nailed to the cross, over His head.
    There was objection....from the pharisees.
    If Rome crucifies...Jesus....king of the Jews....
    then how would Judea ever have a king?
    Pilate replied...'I have wrote, what I have wrote.'

    Crucifixion was done by tying the convict to the cross.
    Death would follow from thirst and exposure.
    The lengthy time of hanging would serve as deterrent for any observer passing by....typically three days.
    However the Romans did not want Him to hang for three days.
    He had been known to draw large crowds.

    The nails were used to induce severe shock.
    It hastens death.
    The lance thrust into His side severs the liver...another 'sure kill'.
     
    #62 Thief, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  3. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    My Response about Matthew 12:38-40:


    A most important point mentioned by Jesus himself in matthew 12:38-40!!

    jews saying to Jesus, Master, we would see a sign from thee [matthew 12:38]

    But Jesus answered and said unto them "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah"[matthew 12:39]

    for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth [matthew 12:40]


    We see according to Matthew 12:38-40 Jesus prophecy clearly says his miraculous sign shall be the sign of Prophet Jonah

    My Question what was the sign of Jonah?


    Read "book of jonah" though we everybody know it

    A belly of the fish ate jonah right?

    He was there 3 days and 3 nights right?

    Did jonah die in the belly of the fish?

    WAS JONAH STILL ALIVE WHEN HE WAS VOMITED OUT OF THE BELLY OF THE WHALE?

    TELL JONAH WAS ALIVE OR DEAD?

    Jonah resurrected from the dead or he was still Alive??? [/COLO
    R]

    Jesus said his miraculous sign will be jonah sign!

    "And there shall no sign be given to it, BUT THE SIGN OF THE PROPHET JONAH"

    If Jesus die in the cross then what was the miraculous sign of Jesus?

    we everybody know Jonah was still Alive and that was his miraculous sign.

    then Jesus was Still Alive as he prophesied!!

    Jesus never resurrected from the dead! He was Still Alive. An angel also said Jesus was Alive!


    Angels said Jesus "was Alive"[Luke 24:23

    "but didnt find Jesus body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was Alive" [Luke 24:23]


    Another important point:

    Jesus said "i have not yet returned to the Father"[john 20:17]



    Means that He was still Alive,NOT DEAD YET,because if somebody dies,he then goes back to the Creator.This was strongest proof admitted by Jesus himself

    Jesus never came for sacrifice!! If Jesus came for sacrifice then why he prayed to God? Why he said to his disciples for buy a sword to fight?

    "Going a little farther,he feel with his face to the ground and prayed,"My Father,if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will,but as you will" [matthew 26:39]

    "During the days of Jesus life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he(God) was heard because of his reverent submission"[Hebrews 5:7]

    Here we see God "heard" Jesus prayer. What this mean?

    God can not hear what we doing?! No!!

    that heard meaning God accepted Jesus prayer.Meaning God will save him from the death...

    Zacheriah prayed to God and God heard his prayer and gave him John!

    Abraham prayed to God and God heard his prayer and gave him Ishmael!

    The name Ishmael was also chosen by God Himself.

    "And the Angel of the Lord said unto Hagar: "Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his NAME ISHMAEL, because the Lord heard thy affliction"[Genesis 16:11]

    Ishmael means "God hears"

    My Question God heard what?

    The prayer of Abraham!

    Jesus never came for sacrifice!


    "But go and learn what this means: I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE. For i have not come to call the righteous, but sinners"[Matthew 9:13]

    Read "I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE"[Matthew 9:13 from NIV]

    "I Will HAVE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE"[Matthew, 12:7 from Kjv]

    Here its very clear that Jesus never came for sacrifice

    Bible clearly says no man can die for another man sin!

    "Every man shall die for His Own Sin.." [Duet 24:16]

    If you still believe that he died on the cross, then he was a false Prophet and accursed of God according to According to deut 13:5!!

    "And that Prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death.."[Duet 13:5 from Kjv]

    "That Prophet or dreamer Must be put to death..."[Duet 13:5 from Niv]

    "The False prophets or visionaries who try to lead you astray must be put to death..."[Duet 13:5 from New living translation]


    Another Important point in Psalm 37:28:

    "For the LORD loves the Just and WILL NOT FORSAKE HIS FAITHFUL ONES. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off"[Psalms, 37:28]

    yet when Jesus Christ was put one the cross according to Bible.He cried out

    "My God, My God, why do you forsaken me"[Matthew, 27:46]

    How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones???

    Now the christians have four options to choose from:

    1.The persons put on the cross was not real Jesus.

    2.Jesus was not faithful to God.

    3.Jesus lied that God forsook him.

    4.Bible is laying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

    You have 4 options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try.

    You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself!

    So we see if Jesus really crucified then God is liar and God break his promise or Jesus was a false man!!!

    but according to Bible God never breaks his promise! meaning God saved Jesus and Jesus was Alive!

    "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should chang his mind,Does he speak and then not act?Does he promise and not fulfill?"[Numbers 23:19][/QUOTE]
     
    #63 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  4. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Shine of sun I'm afraid the Quranic verse I quoted is quite forthright and clear you have quoted a very obscure and vague translation.

    Translation of the Holy Koran by Shakir: [ 19: 33 ] And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

    Here Jesus says that he should have peace on the day he dies and is raised to life.

    Now let's take a look at your bible quoting skills:

    Sir you have reversed this scripture the verse doesn't say that if a prophet is put to death he is false, it says if a prophet is false he must be put to death. It doesn't say that a true prophet can't be killed, in fact the Jews believed Jesus was a fake/an imposter:
    so the Jews killed Jesus even though he was the real deal thinking that he was an impostor. Even Jesus said that Jerusalem kills prophets that were sent to it
    Anyway you have twisted deut 13:5, it doesn't say that if a prophet is put to death he is fake it is a command to the Jews that they should kill false prophets who lead them astray. what you have done is similar to the following:

    A.At night it is always dark
    B.When it is dark it is always night

    this two sentences are not the same because darkness doesn't always mean night. This is what you did to Deuteronomy. The verse says:
    Basically the verse says if happen to have prophet or dreamer among you who wants to lead you astray kill him.

    You have twisted the verse so that it says

    If a prophet is put to death he is a fake and impostor. Like my above example of night and darkness what you say and what the bible actually says doesn't agree.

    Lastly Jesus wasn't a false prophet because he didn't lead the Jews to other Gods, and a false prophet is one who leads the Jews to other Gods as stated in the above verse.
     
  5. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Read my post #55. I answered your question there. Jesus didn't say like Jonah was alive in the sea creature's stomach I will also be alive in the tomb. Read my post is quite clear that Jesus was talking about the time factor and not his state in the tomb. Plus I gave two verses were Jesus himself said he would be killed. Please stop repeating your argument and answer my points.
     
  6. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Oh dear in your desperation to prove something you have devised a false quadrochotomy, because those four options aren't the only ones, there are at least two more.

    1. Jesus thought that God had forsaken him because of all the suffering he was going through. And often times even modern day followers of God feel like God has forsaken them, but the truth is He hasn't.
    2. since Jesus carried the sins of the world, He took our sins on himself, giving his body to be nailed on the tree, so that we, being dead to sin, might have a new life in righteousness, and by his wounds we have been made well.
    (1Pe 2:24 BBE)
    , it was almost as if he had sinned 2Co 5:21 ISV God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become God's righteousness in him. so God could forsake Jesus because when Jesus took our sins on him, it was as if he had not been faithful with God and become a sinner, though he himself had actually never sinned, thus God forsook him for a while as he carried our sins. Since sin separates Man From God, spiritual separation that leads to eternal separation. But after defeating sin God could look at Jesus again, because our sin was no longer on him, and the bond between Father and Son could be re-established.

    The second option is the traditional Christian response, both are acceptable and show that your false quadrochotomy is nothing short of desperation on you part.

    As to your argument that no man can die for the sins of another, this is a complex issue and it deserves another thread, I do not not have the time to address now, but I have addressed the issue in my private notes. If you want me to address that we will have to do so in another thread. For Now I have given good proof from the bible that Jesus DID in fact die. I praise the Lord God for his word and sending His Son to die for my sins. Over to you.
     
  7. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Now let me add something to my Jonah argument.

    1. My friend Tony spent two weeks in his house playing his game console.
    2. If I come to you and tell you just like my friend Tony I will spend two weeks in my house. Does this mean that I will do exactly what my Friend Tony was doing, playing a game console?

    No it only means that I will spend two weeks in my house just like Tony, I could be sleeping during those two weeks or I could could be painting a portrait of the girl I met the other day, or I could be watching TV.

    In the same way Jesus was only conveying the fact that just as Jonah stayed three days and three nights in the stomach of the sea creature he would also stay three days and three nights in the tomb. Jesus was talking about the time of his stay in the tomb not his activities or state of being in the tomb.
     
  8. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Jesus didnt say like like miraculous sign of Jonah? Here most important pinint is what was the sign of jonah. We need to check Jesus and jonah sign cause Jesus promised us that His miraculous sign shall be the sign of prophet Jonah!!

    Jesus never said 3 days or 3 years sign, nor he said 3 month sign! Remember jews never requested to Jesus for a 3 month sign or 3 years sign! jews requested to Jesus about a miraculous sign cause they was unbeliever of christ. They requested him for a miraculous sign...

    But Jesus answered and said unto them "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah"[matthew 12:39]

    for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth [matthew 12:40]


    Please do not make me laugh cause 3 days and 3 nights never can be a miraculous sign!!!!

    PLEASE EXPLAIN ME THAT HOW 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS CAN BE A MIRACULOUS SIGN???

    If any dead body stay 3 days and 3 nights in a tomb then its a "great Miraculous sign" unto Jonah?

    How its show us unto Jonah?

    Jonah was dead or Alive??

    You never read the book of jonah. Do you you have any idea about the sign of jonah?


    why Time factor is very important here? Anyway no problem. Jesus really was 3 days and 3 nights in tomb???

    Lets see about it:

    Friday nights Jesus was in tomb right? 1 nights

    saturday morning Jesus was in tomb right? 1 days

    saturday nights Jesus was in tomb right? 2 nights

    sunday morning Jesus was in tomb?????

    "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalen went to tomb and saw that the stone been removed from the entrance"[John 20:1]/COLOR]

    No!!!/u]

    So here we see its not 3 days and 3 nights but 2 nights and 1 day!!


    You fail about Time Factor!!!

    I know about your verse but it just creating contradiction. I think that verse actually man made corruption or contradiction by Jesus himself!!

    Gospel have many contradiction what given by Jesus himself!!

    "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is Valid.."[John 8:14]

    "If I testify about myself, my testimony is NOT valid.."[John 5:31]


    Jesus Quotes Unknown scripture!!!

    "Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, STREAMS OF LIVING WATER WILL FLOW FROM WITHIN HIM"[John 7:38]/COLOR]

    There is NO VERSE in old testament about "STREAMS OF LIVING WATER WILL FLOW FROM WITHIN HIM"! Please go and search your whole bible!!

    All prove that Gospel have contradiction..
     
  9. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    You have misread my post, read it again and again until you get it.

    where is the contradiction? I don't see it. It must only exist in your head. Read my first post I have dealt with your feeble argument of the sign of Jonah. Jesus only says that for as long as Jonah was in the sea creature's stomach that is how long he will be in the tomb. Read my post #67. Let me just order my points:

    1. The sign of Jonah was to the Jews, therefore the Jews had to see the sign. Did the Jews see Jesus alive in the tomb? No they all thought he had died and none of them verified that he was alive in the tomb as the Tomb was closed sealed and guarded.
    2. THe Gospels clearly record how Jesus died .
    4. Jesus himself said he would be killed.
    5. Jesus gave died on the cross, his spirit left his body.
    6. The Roman soldiers confirmed his death.
    7. Jesus said he would rise on the third day. Rise from what? From the dead.

    Lol. I didnt fail, you just fail to understand that the Jewish idiom after three days and three nights this is a Jewish idiom that literally means on the third day. Idioms don't work like everyday language, go to carm.org there they explain this idiom.

    THE REST OF YOUR POST IS NOT ABOUT THE CRUCIFIXION AND THUS IS IRRELEVANT.
     
    #69 roundsquare, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  10. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    I already made you clear that Jesus never died in cross and he was alive according to Islam.

    Jesus Alive body was taken to to heaven by God unto Elijah and Enoch!

    ..And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried..And he saw him more [2 Kings 2:11-12]


    Also Enoch was taken to heaven by God unto Jesus

    "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him"[Genesis 5:24]

    This is also repeated in Hebrews 11:5

    "By Faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one with pleased God"[Hebrews 11:5]


    "Commemorate Enoch in the book, verily he was a man of truth and a Prophet"[Quran, 19:56]

    "I RAISED HIM (Enoch) to a lofty station" [Quran, 19:57]


    "Allah RAISED HIM(Jesus) up unto Himself.."[Quran, 3:158]


    Bible Prophecy clearly says, False Prophet Must be put to death! According to Jews Jesus was a false Prophet and a false christ. So if Jesus really crucified then According to Jews belief Jesus was a false Prophet.

    But according to Jesus they also killed many truth Prophets:


    "O Jerusalem! jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you"[Matthew 23:37]

    here jesus said before jews killed many truth prophets who sent for them. Meaning they killed their own prophets who sent only for them.

    My Question Jesus sent only for the Israel? Though the bible says Jesus sent only for the israel except mark 16 chapter.

    If you agree with me that Jesus sent only for the israel then i have no problem cause i shall ask you another question...


    he answered "i was sent only to the lost sheep of israel" [matthew 15:24]
    /COLOR]

    There God says, false Prophet "must" be put to death

    "The False prophets or visionaries who try to lead you astray must be put to death..."[Duet 13:5 from New living translation]

    we know according to Jesus, before Jews killed many Prophets.

    My question why God did not save his prophets who killed by Jews? God sacrificed his all Prophets unto Jesus???



    Torah says anyone coming to chang the Torah is immediately identified as a False prophet(Duet 13:1-4)

    And False Prophet must be put to Death!

    We see Duet 13:1-4 actually was a Prophecy...So how you can tell Jesus killed by jews? You wanna try to prove that prophecy mentioned to Jesus???
     
  11. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Let me say this you have not addressed any of my points the best you did was twist what I said and misunderstand plain English. All my points are strong and your weak excuses and complaints have not weakened them. I will not reply to you anymore until you begin to understand what I am saying and what the bible has said, because it feels like I am wasting my time. In the meantime get some training in English and get a brain. no, wait you have a brain, why dont you start using it.
     
    #71 roundsquare, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  12. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    You talking from peter and paul!! Not from Jesus christ himself!!!

    Where Jesus said that he shall die for our sin???

    Actually Jesus said, He shall Alive unto Jonah and that shall be a miraculous sign!!!

    Still you are unable to answer my few question. I said why Jesus prayed to God?

    Why Jesus said "I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE" in the Gospel if he came for sacrifice for our sins?? Why? Jesus was a liar?

    Jesus never came for Sacrifice!!!

    "But go and learn what this means: I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE. For i have not come to call the righteous, but sinners"[Matthew 9:13]

    Read "I DESIRE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE"[Matthew 9:13 from NIV]

    "I Will HAVE MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE" [Matthew, 12:7 from Kjv]


    so how you can tell Jesus died for our sin??

    Old testament clearly says No man can die for another man sin and if anyone teach false to people what is against of God commandments then he is a false Prophet and that false Prophet must be put to Death according to Deut 13:5

    "Every man shall die for His Own Sin.." [Duet 24:16]

    this is the commandment of God. Now if anyone try to change it then he must be a false Prophet.

    No no! jesus never was a false Prophet. Sorry to say, your christianity theory proving that Jesus was a false Prophet.... But your theory never came from Jesus himself. Lets see what Jesus said about it


    "Think not that i am come to destroy the LAW, or the PROPHETS, I did not come to destroy, but to Fulfil the law" [Matthew 5:17]

    Fulfil means "FULFILLING THE PROPHECY, NOT CHANGING THE OLD TESTAMENT"

    "I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, not one letter, not a DOT, will dissappear from the low until all that must happen has happened"[matthew 5:18]

    "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do SAME will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.."[Matthew 5:19]

    If anyone break only one commandment of Law and teach it to other for same to do it then he can not enter to heaven according to matthew 5:19

    "..BUT whoever practices and teaches these commands will be Great in the kingdom of heaven"[Matthew 5:19]


    who shall obey those all law, he shall be great in the kingdom of heaven!!

    Meaning according to Jesus you must follow the old testament all law. So you should believe

    "Every man shall die for His Own Sin.." [Duet 24:16] and if you do not believe it then actually you are against of Jesus words!!


    YOU READ RED LETTER BIBLE NAME? THERE JESUS EVERY LETTERS ARE RED AND PETER OR PAUL EVERY LETTERS ARE BLACK.

    NO BLACK LETTER CAN CHANG THE TEACHING OF RED LETTERS!! Meaning you can not chang Jesus teaching!

    God NEVER forsake his faithful ones and this is the promise of God! So how you can tell God is liar?

    You christian tell isaiah 7:14 mentioned to Jesus and his another name is "Emmanual"

    Emmanual meaning "God is with us"

    if God really forsake jesus then God was not with Jesus meaning jesus was not Emmanuel!!!


    yes no Man can die for another man sin as i proved it by Bible!!!

    Even we are not guilty for our Father Adam!!

    If you read Ezekiel 18:20 verse then you will see what is real truth!


    "The soul who sins in the the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the farther, nor will the father share the guilt of son.The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him[Ezekiel 18:20]


    Adam is our all Father and we all are his sons. So its clear that we are not guilty for the sin of Our Father Adam. Sorry to say, Christianity theory is nonsense!!

    Christianity all false theory never came by Jesus himself!!
     
    #72 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  13. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    its never 3 days and 3 nights. Its very clear in bible!! Can you prove me that you are right??
     
    #73 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  14. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

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    Can you prove you are right, either? :rainbow1:
     
  15. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Bible Prophecy clearly says Jesus not crucified! Lets see

    For the Scripture say, "He will order His angels to protect and guard you"[luke 4:10]


    "And they will hold you up with their hands so you wont even hurt your foot on a stone"[luke 4:11]


    Jesus responded, "The scripture ALSO SAY, you must not test the lord ur God"[Luke 4:12]

    How satan referred to psalm 91 regarding the protection of Jesus?


    Jesus confirmed that Psalm 91 chapter was indeed speaking about him by saying "the scripture ALSO say"

    Also the new testament, again, confirms that Psalm 91 is referring to Jesus christ....

    Psalm 91 clearly says Jesus not crucified!


    Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, n he was protected n he was protected n lifted by GOD ALMIGHTY..


    Jesus cried To God [Hebrews 5:7]


    GOD Almighty will hear his cries (psalm 91:15)


    "SURELY HE WILL SAVE YOU from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence"[Psalm 91:3]

    Meaning God will SAVE Jesus from the deadly pestilence(psalm 91:3)

    "HE WILL COVER YOU with his feathers, and under his wings u will find refuge; his faithfulness will be ur shield and rampart"[Psalm 91:4]

    Meaning GOD almighty will cover Jesus with His Protection (psalm 91:4)

    Gospel says Angels strengthened Jesus

    "An Angel from heaven appeared to Jesus and strengthened him"[luke 22:43]

    "YOU WILL NOT FEAR the terror of night, nor the arrow that files by day"[Psalm 91:5]

    MEANING Christ will then not have any fear to him (psalm 91:5)

    "YOU WILL ONLY OBSERVE WITH YOUR EYES AND SEE THE PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED"[psalm 91:8]

    Meaning Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (psalm 91:8)

    "THEN NO HARM WILL BEFALL YOU, no disaster will come near ur tent."[Psalm 91:10]

    "FOR GOD WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING U TO GUARD U IN ALL UR WAYS"[Psalm 91:11]

    "ANGELS WILL LIFT YOU UP IN THEIR HANDS, SO THAT U WILL NOT STRIKE UR FOOT AGAINST A STONE"[Psalm 91:12]

    "because he lovers me," says the Lord," I WILL RESCUE HIM; I WILL PROTECT HIM"[Psalm 91:14]

    Meaning God Almighty will send down the Angels to protect Jesus and lift him (psalm 91:11-12, 14)


    An Angel said JESUS "WAS ALIVE" [Luke 24:23]


    "HE WILL CALL UPON ME, AND I WILL ANSWER HIM, i will be with him in trouble, I WILL DELIVER HIM AND HONOR HIM"[Psalm 91:15]

    Meaning Christ's call will be HEARD, and he will be delivered And honored (psalm 91:15)

    JESUS PRAYED AND GOD "HEARD" JESUS PRAYER [HEBREWS 5:7]

    No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified
    !!

    ITS CLEAR THAT JESUS CHRIST NEVER CRUCIFIED!
     
    #75 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  16. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    Read more prophecy in bible what says God saved Jesus!!!


    "IN MY ANGUISH I CRIED TO THE LORD, AND HE ANSWERED BY SETTING ME FREE"[Psalm 118:5]

    GOD ALMIGHTY ANSWERED MESSIAH AND HAD SET HIM FREE BEFORE SUFFERING PAIN TORTURE AND DEATH

    "The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid. WHAT CAN MAN DO TO ME?[Psalm, 118:6]

    Messiah also say that, MAN HAS NO POWER OF HIM

    "I WILL NOT DIE BUT ALIVE, and will proclaim what the Lord has done"[Psalm 118,17]

    Messiah shall be Alive, NOT die!

    jesus Alive body taken to heaven by God and prophecy fulfilled...

    "The LORD has chastened me severely, BUT HE HAS NOT GIVEN ME OVER TO DEATH"[Psalm 118:18]

    "THE STONE THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CAPSTONE"[PSALM 118:22]

    >ALSO SEE this in MATTHEW 21:42-43

    "Jesus said unto them, Did ye never read in scripture. THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?[Matthew 21:42] aka PSALM 118:22

    "Therefore say i unto u, the kingdom of God shall taken from u, AND GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF"[Matthew 21:43]


    IN REGARDS TO PSALM 118:22,
    WE CLEARLY REFERENCED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WHICH PROOF THAT INDEED PSALM 118 chapter REFERRING TO JESUS CHRIST
     
    #76 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  17. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    I've seen the argument in regards to the Gospels. The thing though is that it is a senseless argument. The main reason is because the Gospel writers believed that it said virgin, and the Greek did in fact say that. The Hebrew definitely states that it is a young woman, but when translating to the Greek, they mistook it for virgin.

    So the Gospel writers honestly believed that it was suppose to be a virgin woman, and literally meant that. It just happened that they had a mistranslation.
     
  18. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    Of course it is not going to say literal son of God. That is pointless. However, if you read Luke 1:26-38, it clearly states that God was responsible for the impregnation of Mary and that they child that she conceived was the Son of God. It is definitely referring to the literal Son of God. Not a servant of God. The Greek makes this clear.

    First, I'm not a Christian. I don't believe in the Trinity. Second, your translation is wrong. Look at the Bible scholars on this subject. Specifically Bart Erhman, who is a leader in the field. The translation is not a god. It is God. If you look at Jewish tradition, as well as Christian tradition, and just context in general, it is ridiculous to believe that John was saying the Word was a god. Especially when you bring the idea into a Jewish context.
    I'm guessing you haven't studied ancient Judaism very well. The fact is, Judaism, or sects of, were polytheistic. They believed in multiple gods. Later on, they turned away from the idea of worshipping many gods, and instead only worshipped their God. However, even then, they still accepted that their were other gods.
    I'm pretty sure I have. Matthew and Luke, in the virgin birth stories, are very clear on this point.

    Again, I personally do not believe this idea; as far as I'm concerned, Mary became pregnant after having intercourse with Joseph; however, the Bible is very clear on it's position.
    I used John 3:16, showing that it was considered that Jesus was the literal son of God. However, if you remember correctly, I also said that the word begotten could be a mistranslation, and actually mean the only son. Either way, it is referring to the idea that Jesus is the literal son of God.

    Also, impregnation, in this case, does not need to be from a sexual relation. However, it is clear that Mary was impregnated by God miraculously. And the Holy Spirit, as I've already supported, is God.
    So you agree with me then, as the Bible makes it quite clear that the Holy Spirit and God are one and the same.
    I'm not saying it is the correct view. I think the virgin birth is false. However, the Bible is clear on this point; that Jesus is the Son of God.
    I'm not talking about truth here. I'm talking about what the Bible states. Whether or not it is true, I don't care.
     
  19. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Shine_of_sun raising other points while you have left many unanswered(see my post #69) will not help you, answer all the points i raised. as for psalm 91, it was satan, the father of lies who linked it to Jesus. Now Satan did quote scripture, he quoted psalm 91, which is scripture, so when Jesus said: it is written again..., in matt 4:7, he was confirming that Satan did indeed quote scripture. Jesus at best confirmed that Satan had quoted scripture. But can you prove that Jesus was accepting psalm 91 as being about him? Infact in matthew 16:21-23 when Jesus told his disciples that he would get killed, one of his disciples, Peter replied, by saying that he would not get killed, what did Jesus do to Peter when Peter said he would not get killed? Jesus scolded Peter by referring to him as Satan. So here we have a clear case of Jesus rebuking Satan for saying that he would not be harmed. If Peter was right that Jesus would not get harmed and eventually killed why did Jesus get angry at Peter and scold him calling him Satan?
     
    #79 roundsquare, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  20. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Another thing cherry picking between scripture, deciding which ones are genuine and which ones are later additions is a baseles excercise. I can ask you how do you know which ones were added (if infact there were additions)? The ones that counter your view? How will you know such a thing?
     
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