UK - Police will enter homes and break up Christmas dinners

[Twilight Hue]

Unless you have a non-utilities shack in the middle of Yukon territory, your property is owned by the government, through taxes and what else have you. Private ownership is a myth. It's only private if you own all aspects of it,including energy production. Otherwise you are dependent on societies services, which falls under governmental jurisdiction.

Which is where my interest in those who live off the grid begins.

These days I can't think of anything the government thinks it dosent own including ones own body and person alongside ones domain.

 

[exchemist]

No, it's not difficult to grasp and you can stow your attitude. Your take on it is common in places like the UK. Americans tend to have a more individualistic approach to it. However, huge crowds of Brits have taken to the streets to protest the restrictions, so maybe it's not just that but there is a cultural difference.

No a handful of cranks and nutcases (antivaxxers, G5 phone mast nutters, New World Order morons etc) have taken to the streets , including Jeremy Corbyn's brother, who, I'm pleased to say, got arrested.

And no, I won't be "stowing" my attitude. This is a serious public health emergency and I am not going to give a free pass to people intent on undermining the efforts we need to make collectively to control it.

 

[exchemist]

Entering private homes at leisure smacks of totalitarianism no matter what the reason.

Your police do it all the time. Breonna Taylor?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Folks, this virus is a (several expletives deleted) problem: to be fair, it's sucks.

But what we are learning now is that it is not bars, restaurants, health clubs or other venues that are following the guidelines. Right here in Ontario, that's become obvious, when several urban areas returned to closing those venues -- and the cases continued to rise. The cases rose for no other reason than that people insisted on having large gatherings for Thanksgiving (it's earlier in Canada), and on going to private parties, and doing all sorts of others stuff that government can't legitimately shut down.

Governments are not going to fix this! Until we all -- us ordinary folks -- figure out that we are the cause, we are the vector, then this is just going to go on and on. Trump's promises about a vaccine "almost immediately" are rubbish. He knows it, I know it, the medical profession knows it -- Fox News is silent about it (of course).

Here's the deal, everybody -- if 95% of all us followed the very few, excessively simple rules, this thing would be almost over already. Keep your social distance, when you can't, wear a mask, carry your hand sanitizer with you and use, and wash your hands frequently.

We all do that? Then we'll be back to almost normal in weeks, not months. Viruses have a short life-span -- if they can't find a new host quickly, they die. If you protect yourself and others, you deny them access to a new host.

This could not possibly be simpler. Why is it so difficult for supposedly intelligent people to understand?

 

[ChristineM]

I suspect that we also disagree about the extent of the risk posed.

I doubt that but the risk does exist

 

[ChristineM]

Which supports my view that the modern-day left and right wing are mirror images of each other.

Mirror image = opposite, yes

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well nobody on the right here does... To us, he just represents big government. That's a right wing no-no.

It's just a suggestion, but you have to stop seeing the world as so binary.
I didn't suggest the right has ANY opinion about him. I'm honestly not sure what your comment here has to do with anything, unless you're assuming that the left is simply everything the right is not. (IE. Binary positioning)

That's inaccurate and you run the risk of being unable to address issues on their merit, instead taking a reactionary position against those you see as your ideological enemies.

My opinion is that reactionism and binary thinking are fundamental barriers to effective democracy. I'm happy when someone disagrees with me via cogent discussion, and increasingly unhappy when people agree with me, simply because I appear to be 'on their side'. It's a massive issue in modern democratic nations, I think.

 

[Secret Chief]

But I advocate less governmental power in a private home.

I understand and appreciate that. In weighing that belief against the issue of the virus, what is your thinking as to which side, on balance, you fall towards (the supremacy of privacy, I presume) ?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Mirror image = opposite, yes

Opposite looking, exactly the same otherwise.

 

[ChristineM]

Opposite looking, exactly the same otherwise.

Methinks US and UK politics are an ocean apart

 

[Jainarayan]

If they were in the USA, they might get themselves shot.

Or face major-rager lawsuits for violating the Fourth Amendment.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I want to see how many judges would be issuing warrants on Christmas Day

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand and appreciate that. In weighing that belief against the issue of the virus, what is your thinking as to which side, on balance, you fall towards (the supremacy of privacy, I presume) ?

I don't see a "side". Just that government has more
authority over behavior in public places than in one's
home. This is not a hard & fast limit applied to all things.

 

[Secret Chief]

I don't see a "side". Just that government has more
authority over behavior in public places than in one's
home. This is not a hard & fast limit applied to all things.

No, I know, I just meant does your belief in the privacy of home in some way outweigh the threat from the virus, and if so what is your thinking on this?

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I know, I just meant does your belief in the privacy of home in some way outweigh the threat from the virus, and if so what is your thinking on this?

That would depend upon the knowable magnitude of the threat posed.
If more is known than merely a group of congregating, that could
increase the validity of government intervening.
This is not an easy thing to describe in all possible detail.

 

[Secret Chief]

That would depend upon the knowable magnitude of the threat posed.
If more is known than merely a group of congregating, that could
increase the validity of government intervening.
This is not an easy thing to describe in all possible detail.

Fair enough. The rules on this in the UK are based on specific numbers of people depending on the situation.

 

[Cooky]

It's just a suggestion, but you have to stop seeing the world as so binary.
I didn't suggest the right has ANY opinion about him. I'm honestly not sure what your comment here has to do with anything, unless you're assuming that the left is simply everything the right is not. (IE. Binary positioning)

That's inaccurate and you run the risk of being unable to address issues on their merit, instead taking a reactionary position against those you see as your ideological enemies.

My opinion is that reactionism and binary thinking are fundamental barriers to effective democracy. I'm happy when someone disagrees with me via cogent discussion, and increasingly unhappy when people agree with me, simply because I appear to be 'on their side'. It's a massive issue in modern democratic nations, I think.

I'll reflect on that after dinner... Right now, I'm not exactly sure I understand - but I will.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That would depend upon the knowable magnitude of the threat posed.
If more is known than merely a group of congregating, that could
increase the validity of government intervening.
This is not an easy thing to describe in all possible detail.

I think in an effort not to be disingenuous, we ought to recognize that the way this virus is transmitted, person to person, makes it entirely likely that social groups made up of people who are not in your immediate family, and who are neither socially distanced nor wearing masks, means that it WILL BE SPREAD. Just about nothing is clearer than that.

So, bring the whole clan over Christmas if you want -- even ask uncle Angus to bring the Haggis -- but don't pretend that you are not ignoring some stuff that we actually do know.

Lang may yer lum reek! And the reek infest your bacon -- double/triple smoked is one gate to heaven.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think in an effort not to be disingenuous, we ought to recognize that the way this virus is transmitted, person to person, makes it entirely likely that social groups made up of people who are not in your immediate family, and who are neither socially distanced nor wearing masks, means that it WILL BE SPREAD. Just about nothing is clearer than that.

So, bring the whole clan over Christmas if you want -- even ask uncle Angus to bring the Haggis -- but don't pretend that you are not ignoring some stuff that we actually do know.

Lang may yer lum reek! And the reek infest your bacon -- double/triple smoked is one gate to heaven.

FWIW, I'm not advising unsafe behavior.
Just opining on governmental power.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

the way this virus is transmitted, person to person, makes it entirely likely that social groups made up of people who are not in your immediate family, and who are neither socially distanced nor wearing masks, means that it WILL BE SPREAD. Just about nothing is clearer than that.

So should people not be around anyone who doesn't live with them (I suppose work is an exception)?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

To both @Revoltingest and @Saint Frankenstein, please try to understand me....

Governmental power will not get us through the epidemic. People get around that poop all the time. And it is not about NOT being around people, it is about when you ARE around people, do it in a way that protects them -- and you. This is not actually hard! It is, in fact, as a Canadian doing it every day, a pretty trivial matter: don't shake hands, bump (sleeved) elbows; talk from a few feet away, without shouting (and thus blowing your breath everywhere); when you get close, wear a mask; when you pay your bar bill using an Interac machine, get your hand sanitizer out of your purse, backpack or pocket, and use it.

It's amazing how much fun you can still actually have with people -- you just don't have to be in their laps, licking their fingers (or anything else, however much fun that is).

Just be wise --- and therefore safe. And that's good for all of us.