Transgender people cannot be godparents, says Vatican

[columbus]

Why are you so intent on shaming me and my ability to be a helicopter?!

I would refer to you that way if you wanted to.
Is that what you want?
The appropriate pronoun would be "it". You're sure you are OK with that?
Tom

 

[ThorirTheHound]

I would refer to you that way if you wanted to.
Is that what you want?
The appropriate pronoun would be "it". You're sure you are OK with that?
Tom

How dare you assume that asking me that question is OK!!!! You're nothing but a CIS gender white privileged male

 

[columbus]

How dare you assume that asking me that question is OK!!!! You're nothing but a CIS gender white privileged male

I am one of the most privileged humans to ever walk the face of this planet.
Maybe best not to mess with me
Tom

 

[Koldo]

Probably by the gender they identify with, like the rest of us.

As I have said: Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Hell would break loose if that were to happen.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This is a straw-man argument. Not separating conjoined twins can lead to complication later on in life. Heart murmurs are a life-threatening condition. Being in the "wrong body" is not a threat.

And you know this, how, exactly? Are you actually capable of knowing how other people experience their lives and situations? Are you omniscient? I admit, frankly, that I do NOT know what gender dysphoria feels like, but I'm not quite so ready to write it off as cavalierly as you do. I try to have respect for what those who suffer from something tell me about how it feels TO THEM. I don't expect to be able to experience it with them. I do try to be as sympathetic, empathetic and understanding as I can be, notwithstanding.

And by the way, separating conjoined twins can also lead to complications, and very often, not very much later in life. Many, in fact, have died on the operating table, others not very long afterward. Don't be so hasty in thinking you personally have every answer to every situation until you can experience all those situations for youself.

Again, this is a straw-man. You had the surgery for a physical condition that could help you walk. I was talking about having surgery for esteem issues. I just realized now that bringing up my CP was completely irrelevant to my argument. All I was trying to say was that I don't feel suicidal for being disabled, therefore there is no reason why a transsexual should feel suicidal just for perceiving they have the wrong gender. That's very silly.

And that's rubbish. Lot's of people can't walk, and navigate the world very nicely in wheelchairs. I could have done the same. I did it expressly so that I could enjoy my life the way I wished to. The same reason so many people have cosmetic surgery, by the way. (Do you object to that, out of curiosity?)

And once again, how, precisely, can you judge what it "feels" like to be transgender? You been there? When?

Do you think my CP is natural? I don't think so. My cerebral damage is not genetic, it happened when my oxygen supply was cut off in the womb when my mother's uterus tore. Don't you dare say that my disability is natural. I'm quite sure any dwarf would take your statement to be offensive.

Yes, frankly, I do think that it is natural. Difficulties during birth happen all the time, and are entirely natural, as are the consequences of those diffficulties. It's very unfortunate, and I wish it wouldn't happen, but I'm not in charge of all that, I'm afraid.

 

[RabbiO]

All I was trying to say was that I don't feel suicidal for being disabled, therefore there is no reason why a transsexual should feel suicidal just for perceiving they have the wrong gender. That's very silly.

Hillel is quoted as saying (BT, Avot 2:5) "Do not judge your fellow until you stand in his place."

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Some of us are born eunuchs / hermaphrodite / androgen and thankfully asexual ..
awful as a target for bullying at school as the effete boys shorts are pulled down
to see if i had one.. thankfully the library became a safe refuge to hide ..

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Self esteem issues arise in the mind of the individual. The individual always has a choice to overcome these issues, or to let them consume him/ her.

It's not always that easy. Children who grew up without a support system and were constantly being put down often have self esteem issues into adult hood, and what makes it harder is that developing mood disorders typically go along with it.

If so, then tell me, is sociopathy / psychopathy natural?

Yes, and the bulk majority of them function very well and fairly normally within society.

Is pedophilia natural?

Yes, and the bulk majority of them function very well and fairly normally within society.

What about zoophilia?

Yes, and the bulk majority of them function very well and fairly normally within society.

Is murder natural?

Unfortunately, yes, but as it is typically understood and defined it appears to only be natural for us and our close relative, chimpanzees. We are the only two who have been observed killing in cold blood.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

thankfully the library became a safe refuge to hide ..

That it is. The librarians were actually some of the few people I got along with, perhaps because I was one of the very few who was in there on a regular and frequent basis.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I still keep reading the thread title as "Transgender people cannot be godparents says Mafia".

They're both Italian, maybe that's why I keep confusing them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I must confess I haven't read the entire topic so excuse me if this has been brought up before...
However, If the church was to accept transsexual individuals as godparents, how would they be labeled by the church? Would a trans man be regarded as a godfather or as a godmother ?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The Catholic Church only requires one godparent, who can be either a godmother or a godfather. I don't see how sex or gender is a factor at all.

 

[Koldo]

The Catholic Church only requires one godparent, who can be either a godmother or a godfather. I don't see how sex or gender is a factor at all.

It is as you say: 'either a godmother or a godfather'. Which one would a trans man ( or trans woman ) be called ? The church would be forced to take a stance on this, and no matter what it decided to do it would received a backlash from one side or the other.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is as you say: 'either a godmother or a godfather'. Which one would a trans man ( or trans woman ) be called ? The church would be forced to take a stance on this, and no matter what it decided to do it would received a backlash from one side or the other.

I should re-phrase: the requirements for a godparent don't include any direct reference to gender (and AFAICT, the only place where gender is even an indirect matter is in the rule that your spouse can't be your godparent):

https://www.drvc.org/the-chancery/sponsors-and-godparents.html

 

[MountainPine]

Hillel is quoted as saying (BT, Avot 2:5) "Do not judge your fellow until you stand in his place."

Hillel eh?

Here's what is written in the book of Ezekiel: [Ezekiel 3:18-21] – “When I say to the wrong, ‘You shall certainly die,’ and you have not warned him, nor spoken to warn the wrong from his wrong way, to save his life, that same wrong man shall die in his crookedness, and his blood I require at your hand. But if you have warned the wrong and he does not turn from his wrong, nor from his wrong way, he shall die in his crookedness, and you have delivered your being. And when a righteous one turns from his righteousness and shall do unrighteousness, when I have put a stumbling-block before him, he shall die. Because you did not warn him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done is not remembered, and his blood I require at your hand. But if you have warned the righteous one that the righteous should not sin, and he did not sin, he shall certainly live because he has been warned, and you have delivered your being.”

 

[Koldo]

I should re-phrase: the requirements for a godparent don't include any direct reference to gender (and AFAICT, the only place where gender is even an indirect matter is in the rule that your spouse can't be your godparent):

https://www.drvc.org/the-chancery/sponsors-and-godparents.html

I am not sure I understand how any of this relates to my post. I assume you mean that the church could side-step the issue by not taking any stance on whether a transsexual individual should be called godfather or godmother since there is no direct reference to gender in the requirements for godparents ? I don't think that would work. The church would be pressured into taking a stance.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not sure I understand how any of this relates to my post. I assume you mean that the church could side-step the issue by not taking any stance on whether a transsexual individual should be called godfather or godmother since there is no direct reference to gender in the requirements for godparents ? I don't think that would work. The church would be pressured into taking a stance.

The Church has taken a stance: transsexual godparents aren't permitted. But they didn't do this based on confusion over whether to call the godparent "godfather" or "godmother"; they did it because they have decided that transitioning sex violates the teachings of the Church.

 

[Koldo]

The Church has taken a stance: transsexual godparents aren't permitted. But they didn't do this based on confusion over whether to call the godparent "godfather" or "godmother"; they did it because they have decided that transitioning sex violates the teachings of the Church.

And ?
The first post of mine that you have quoted said: "However, If the church was to accept transsexual individuals as godparents,...".
I am talking about a problem that the church would have to face not much further down the road had it accepted transsexual individuals as godparents.

 

[columbus]

I am talking about a problem that the church would have to face not much further down the road had it accepted transsexual individuals as godparents.

The Spanish bishop forced their hand by demanding an answer now. If, 20 years from now, trans was viewed more like a congenital birth defect that can be treated with modern medicines, the answers might have been different.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And ?
The first post of mine that you have quoted said: "However, If the church was to accept transsexual individuals as godparents,...".
I am talking about a problem that the church would have to face not much further down the road had it accepted transsexual individuals as godparents.

And I don't see how it's a problem.

The question of a person's gender is irrelevant when the requirements the person is subject to have nothing to do with gender.

 

[Aštra’el]

I like to encourage people not to underestimate the strength of their own willpower, resolve and fortitude. Self esteem issues arise in the mind of the individual. The individual always has a choice to overcome these issues, or to let them consume him/ her.

It's not always that easy. Children who grew up without a support system and were constantly being put down often have self esteem issues into adult hood, and what makes it harder is that developing mood disorders typically go along with it.

Whoever said anything about "easy"?