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Transgender people cannot be godparents, says Vatican

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Animals are driven by their instincts. Their instincts will often override their judgment. Humans are driven by conscience. We are not ruled by our instincts. Unlike animals we can create civilization, moral principles, abstract ideas, technology, etc. in which encopasses human natureall of which animals cannot do.

I don't see anything in here that excludes the examples provided by Shadow Wolf. There is something missing. What is it?
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Just as we likely learned some things from our predecessors.
What I find laughable is your denial of the Sacred Bond that all life on Earth shares.

OK, you're definitely not making any sense now. What does learning from out predecessors have to do with what we're talking about? Do primates teach other primates sign language in the wild once learned from humans? Can primates reason like humans? Sorry, but your arguments are all weak. You're saying we can teach a few apes sign language, therefore ALL animals and humans are connected by a "sacred bond." Seriously? :facepalm: Do you also believe animals are spiritual creatures that can obtain enlightenment?
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
@Shadow Wolf Just so you know, I'm an ethical vegan. I understand animals more than you think. I know they value their lives and can experience emotions and suffering like we can. I went vegan because I understand all this and am sympathetic to them. However, it is absurd, unscientific, and irrational to believe that animals are at the same level of consciousness (awareness) and intelligence as we are. Not even every species are at the same levels of awareness. For example, mammals obviously have more awareness than reptiles and fish. There are also multiple natures. It is natural for a whale to swim. It is natural for an eagle to fly. It is natural for a chimpanzee to climb. But does this mean it's natural for an eagle to swim, or for a whale to climb? Of course not. What is natural for one animal is not necessarily natural for another.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth

I like to encourage people not to underestimate the strength of their own willpower, resolve and fortitude. Self esteem issues arise in the mind of the individual. The individual always has a choice to overcome these issues, or to let them consume him/ her.

Sometimes they can't without help. For those who's self esteem issues derive from others' hate, the ideas can be so engrained in them that they cannot be overcome without some kind of positive influence working to reshape their psyche.
"Positive influences"- in this case the motivation and inspiration to fight through your self esteem issues- are all around you and within you when you are just willing to look.

You can find them in nature. You can find them in humanity. They can be found in music. In art. You find them in religion, and spirituality. They are found Above, and Below, and Within. They can be found in the heart, the mind, the imagination. The world is filled with "positive influences".... influences that you can find inspiration and motivation in... influences that you can find strength, power, wisdom, and beauty in.


To clarify, it's not always that easy in reference to it necessarily being just about having the choice to over those issues. What is confidence and good self-esteem to someone whose never had them?

Nowhere have I ever said that the choice to overcome your self esteem issues, depressed feelings and suicidal thoughts was going to be easy. Nowhere have I ever said that it was easy. It is, however, less of a choice and more of a combination of choices. A journey.

You don't just choose to walk through the door and that's it. You choose to fight... so you make the journey and you fight. You adapt, and survive, and you continue on without giving up. Or maybe you do give up, but then you remember what you were fighting for and you begin to fight again. Every moment you fight you are making a choice, every moment you don't give up you are making a choice. You embrace the journey and see where it takes you.


Of course you have to want to make yourself better, but moments of epiphany are rarely, if ever, moments we choose.

I highly disagree.

Someone may improve and better themselves, but it's likely that in many of those cases there was a catalyst(s) outside of their control.
Many yes, but definitely not most. If you are suffering from low self esteem, you should not depend on others to save you from this abyss that is consuming you alive. You can fight, and adapt... or learn what happens when you don't.

Another issue with dismissal of the issue as a choice is that it neglects the fact low-self esteem can be a perpetual downward spiral that worsens as comorbid disorders develop and accumulate.
The world isn't fair. It is often harsh, cruel and unforgiving. One who fails to adapt to this deserves their fate... in nature as well as human society.

What makes it matter in regards to the OP is that what the Vatican has done is perpetuate of wide and deeply rooted social disapproval of transsexuals. It's what makes it pretty much impossible to just make it a choice to fix your situation when socially you are always being put down and have no support, and it gets even worse when add in being lead to believe that even god hates you on top of it the rest.
There are countless religions in the world. Nobody is forcing you to worship the Vatican's religion. Even among those who worship the same God Catholics do, there are many other religions. Many ways to interpret holy books, many ways to worship God(s), and many ways to find motivation and inspiration in religion (Abrahamic or otherwise).

Go fly to Iraq, stand at the captiol, burn a Quran and yell "may curses be upon Muhammad."

That should help you find out what human nature is ;)

Well, I suppose if anyone ever wants a Darwin Award there is a plan for them, lol.

Here is another plan for those "wanting a Darwin Award". Give up on life. Deny the strength of your own willpower, resolve, and fortitude and allow your depression and suicidal thoughts to take you where you Will.


 
Last edited by a moderator:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/03/transgender-people-cannot-be-godparents-says-vatican

The Vatican has told a Spanish bishop that transsexuals cannot be godparents after he asked for a formal answer on the matter, the cleric in the diocese of Cadiz and Ceuta said.

How Christian.
I can't believe I'm defending a Christian considering I'm pagan and I despise all the abrahamic religions. OK.. A "Godparent" is someone who sponsors a baptism.. So as you so boldly put "how christian" well yes it is very Christian of them to deny someone, who breaks the bibles teachings against homosexuality, the ability to become a godparent.. Why is this such a big deal? The real question should be why are these homosexual, transgender people subscribing to this religion in the first place? They are morons or attention seekers.. I have no sympathy for such ignorance
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Considering he chastised his disciples numerous times while displaying the utmost love and respect towards some of societies lowest, I think my "assumption" is rather a solid interpretation based on how the stories of Jesus go.

Jesus and his disciples did not remain in the company of those who remained in sin. Sinners who encountered Jesus and believed him REPENTED of their sins (Luke 5:27-32). Take, for example, the whore in John 8. He told her to "go and sin no more." If Jesus did encounter any homosexuals who believed him, they would have necessarily repented because Jesus would have "set them straight." Your interpretation isn't solid because it is contrary to scripture.


When have I ever implied that? Rather, I think I've been rather vocal that I was sick, I was self-destructing, and my lack of just not caring had me involved with various criminal activities. But that all began to change as I quit resisting myself and accepted who I am. I even went back to college and am working towards a master's and perhaps a doctorates because I wasn't sick anymore, I stopped hating myself, and I began to make plans, form goals, and work towards achieving things, and I'm continuing on improving myself in other areas, whereas before I barely had the drive to even get out of bed, and when I was awake I eventually hit the point where I was counting down the time until I could have a drink. That is all in the past now, and happened before I shaved my goatee off, shaved carpets-worth of body hair off, make myself up to look female, and for once could stand to look at myself in the mirror.

You think pedophilia and zoophilia is okay. That's why I say you are sick.
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
I don't see anything in here that excludes the examples provided by Shadow Wolf. There is something missing. What is it?

What is missing is Shadow Wolf's common sense. He's using apes who can learn sign language to negate the fact that human nature is more advanced—that we thinking and rational creatures. Can an ape establish a civilization or a culture? Can an ape invent technology? Can an ape be a scientist, a philosopher, or a teacher? Sure, you can communicate with an ape with sign language, but can you reason with it? Can you share thoughts and opinions with it? SMH.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
What is missing is Shadow Wolf's common sense. He's using apes who can learn sign language to negate the fact that human nature is more advanced—that we thinking and rational creatures. Can an ape establish a civilization or a culture? Can an ape invent technology? Can an ape be a scientist, a philosopher, or a teacher? Sure, you can communicate with an ape with sign language, but can you reason with it? Can you share thoughts and opinions with it? SMH.

Let me be more specific.
By what standard do you consider 'pedophilia', 'zoophilia' and 'psychopathy' not to be part of human nature ? How did you determine they are not part of human nature ?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The world isn't fair. It is often harsh, cruel and unforgiving. One who fails to adapt to this deserves their fate... in nature as well as human society.

I would like to have quoted your post merely to say how I consider it important for us to instill the sense that individuals actually have the power to change their lives. Because that is actually true, we are not mere spectators. Even though things might go sour we can always try to improve them. I am speaking in general terms, of course. There are circumstances where this wouldn't be so easily applicable.

However.
..
This particular part of your post, the one I have quoted and bolded, is just downright disgusting.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
You say it's natural, therefore you think it's okay.
I don't see the connection myself.
It is natural for animals to behave in ways I consider immoral when people do it. They swipe stuff from each other, have sex on impulse, and kill to get their way. That is natural behavior.
But for some reason, antiLBGT folk bring up "natural" as though it is relevant to morality.

Tom
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You say it's natural, therefore you think it's okay.

Incorrect. I don't conflate 'natural' with 'moral'.
I still want your answer on: By what standard do you consider 'pedophilia', 'zoophilia' and 'psychopathy' not to be part of human nature ? How did you determine they are not part of human nature ?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You say it's natural, therefore you think it's okay.
Once again, and probably not for the last time, natural doesn't mean good, positive, ethical or okay. It just means occurs in nature. Unnatural doesn't mean bad, negative, unethical or not okay. It just means something artificial or supernatural, does not occur in nature.
Arteficial fabrics, glasses, circumcision, synthesized medicines and planes are all unnatural.
Not taking prenatal vitamins, killing, engaging in sex at menstrual age, zoophilia, masterbation, etc are natural.

What makes something good or bad isn't whether it's natural or not. But how it helps or harms the individual or society. And there's a lot of gray area there depending on the society. Mary was probably only 12 years old when she has Jesus, as was Jewish custom. I think that is wrong because I have a better understanding of child brain development and when informed consent is and isn't possible.
And its that desire for informed consent to prevent damage to the participants which makes me label child molestation and beastiality wrong.

In any case trying to make moral distinction based on naturalness is self-defeating.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What is missing is Shadow Wolf's common sense. He's using apes who can learn sign language to negate the fact that human nature is more advanced—that we thinking and rational creatures. Can an ape establish a civilization or a culture? Can an ape invent technology? Can an ape be a scientist, a philosopher, or a teacher? Sure, you can communicate with an ape with sign language, but can you reason with it? Can you share thoughts and opinions with it? SMH.
Humans are apes so, yes.
In any case, thinking, reasoning, tools, social orders and governance aren't human specific traits. We just have more developed brains for it. Not sure how this plays into the discussion though. Our conscience is through well developed empathy. Lack of empathy (such as in sociopathy) is lack of conscience. Plenty of other animals have empathy too, in varying amounts just like humans. But lack the ability to ascertain what is harmful based on complex data. So they often fall back on the instinct of different=bad. So do we, which is why it's so important to ask 'where is the harm' rather than just say 'that's icky and I don't like it, nobody should do it.'
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Incorrect. I don't conflate 'natural' with 'moral'.
I still want your answer on: By what standard do you consider 'pedophilia', 'zoophilia' and 'psychopathy' not to be part of human nature ? How did you determine they are not part of human nature ?

Psychopaths have impairments in certain areas of the brain, which differ from a normal brain, therefore psychopathy is unnatural because it is not how the Creator designed us. Zoophilia and pedophilia, as well as transexualism, are a result of abuse from childhood. The brain can be rewired when abuse happens because a child's brain isn't completely mature and can be programmed the wrong way via abuse. Again, it's not the way the Creator designed us, so it is unnatural. That is my stance. If you believe I am wrong because you don't believe in God and/or believe some people have "evolved" a certain way, or whatever, it's not my problem.

Humans are apes so, yes.

Humans may be primates like apes, but you can't say that in order to justify animalistic behavior in humans. It isn't natural for humans to act like apes. We are civilized, apes are not.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Humans may be primates like apes, but you can't say that in order to justify animalistic behavior in humans. It isn't natural for humans to act like apes. We are civilized, apes are no
I say humans are apes because humans are ape, not just primates but of the great ape clade. We are also animals. You going to reply to the rest of the post?
 
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