To BElieve or not to BElieve???

[Mohsen]

Imran Hussein speaks to an atheist about belief, and how conversations regarding belief have to be grounded in rationality!

Filmed in the world famous Speakers Corner in London’s Hyde Park!

 

[Woberts]

Wow, he's rocking an awesome beard.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm at the 5:50 mark now and my first major problem with his approach is that he is putting a lot of things on the table, so much so, that it is difficult to respond. He is barraging his target with way too much information based on his own assumptions about reality. Further to this, he doesn't give the fellow much time TO respond and simply continues the information barrage.

8:45 He just stated that "god is necessary" which is simply not true outside the confines of his thinking. He ignores the FACT that that is an assumption he has made. And again, he doesn't seem to be particularly interested in the other fellow's opinion, based on his interruptions and speed talking past the man's points.

9:16 He says, "from our previous discussions". That is sort of a weird thing to say if this conversation is not setup to begin with. One does not usually cite "previous discussions" in an ongoing discussion.

14:25 His whole argument over the last 5 min is just silly. He is steamrolling the guy with data... especially when he starts blathering with the quotes from the Qur'an. There is so much assumption involved it really is laughable. Frankly, I'm not sure how much longer he can hold my interest.


16:12 Wow. He is actually letting the other guy speak. That is amazing... and the other guy does make some sense What our proselytizer doesn't seem to understand is the arrogance of his own position.

18:53 "You have to question your ability to question before you can question god's existence." And he is claiming to want a rational conversation? I've heard enough right there.

I simply do not get the impression he is particularly interested in the other man's point of view as he is hellbent on ramrodding his own ideas down his target's throat. This is not an effective discussion tactic.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm at the 5:50 mark now and my first major problem with his approach is that he is putting a lot of things on the table, so much so, that it is difficult to respond. He is barraging his target with way too much information based on his own assumptions about reality. Further to this, he doesn't give the fellow much time TO respond and simply continues the information barrage.

8:45 He just stated that "god is necessary" which is simply not true outside the confines of his thinking. He ignores the FACT that that is an assumption he has made. And again, he doesn't seem to be particularly interested in the other fellow's opinion, based on his interruptions and speed talking past the man's points.

9:16 He says, "from our previous discussions". That is sort of a weird thing to say if this conversation is not setup to begin with. One does not usually cite "previous discussions" in an ongoing discussion.

14:25 His whole argument over the last 5 min is just silly. He is steamrolling the guy with data... especially when he starts blathering with the quotes from the Qur'an. There is so much assumption involved it really is laughable. Frankly, I'm not sure how much longer he can hold my interest.


16:12 Wow. He is actually letting the other guy speak. That is amazing... and the other guy does make some sense What our proselytizer doesn't seem to understand is the arrogance of his own position.

18:53 "You have to question your ability to question before you can question god's existence." And he is claiming to want a rational conversation? I've heard enough right there.

Kudos!
You watched it so that others needn't.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can't help but feel it as a deep irony that the very people who most value belief in God's existence get it so demonstrably, tragically wrong... in no small measure precisely because they make such a big deal of it.

God-beliefs can't really sustain that much weight, people.

At this point I came to sincerely believe that when someone that was raised a Muslim attains a functional understanding of atheism the odds are very high indeed that he will adopt it as his own belief... largely because Islaam is no help at all at understanding theism!

 

[Mohsen]

@YmirGF

I think the previous conversations are linked in the video description on YouTube!

 

[Mohsen]

I can't help but feel it as a deep irony that the very people who most value belief in God's existence get it so demonstrably, tragically wrong... in no small measure precisely because they make such a big deal of it.

God-beliefs can't really sustain that much weight, people.

Speaking of irony - atheists living online on a religious forum!!! Hehe

 

[YmirGF]

@YmirGF

I think the previous conversations are linked in the video description on YouTube!

I get that, which lends support to the idea that the whole thing is a setup. I'm note entirely convinced that the "atheist" is, in fact, an atheist and is not simply a friendly Muslim playing the role of one.

 

[Mohsen]

I get that, which lends support to the idea that the whole thing is a setup. I'm note entirely convinced that the "atheist" is, in fact, an atheist and is not simply a friendly Muslim playing the role of one.

Why do you think he’s a Muslim?

 

[YmirGF]

Why do you think he’s a Muslim?

Just a feeling. His comments are nothing like what I would have responded with, for example. It just doesn't feel right. Heck, I would have stopped the Muslim guy in his tracks at the first sweeping assumptions he made. This guy just let it all whoosh past. A bit odd. Then again, if he is a wishy-washy atheist, one might react that way.

 

[Mohsen]

Just a feeling. His comments are nothing like what I would have responded with, for example. It just doesn't feel right. Heck, I would have stopped the Muslim guy in his tracks at the first sweeping assumptions he made. This guy just let it all whoosh past. A bit odd. Then again, if he is a wishy-washy atheist, one might react that way.

“It just doesn’t feel right” is not really a reasonable assumption is it? Also, I’m pretty sure atheists are about as diverse as diversity itself. Not all atheists are trolls, nor are they all nice people, not all atheists are scientifically clued up, nor are all atheists ignorant of science, not all atheists like vegetarian food, nor are all atheists carnivores... I think we should take the man at face value and not create a straw man of him based on unreasonable assumptions!

 

[LuisDantas]

Speaking of irony - atheists living online on a religious forum!!! Hehe

My point exactly, Dear @Mohsen

You are actually taking as a premise - and an unrealistic, deeply inaccurate premise it is - that atheists are not supposed to be religious, and perhaps that there is something of real significance in the distiction between theists and atheists.

That premise, in and of itself, is a major hurdle in attaining actual mutual understanding between atheists and Muslims - and a chief reason why there is hardly any traction in Muslim Dawah (proselitism) directed towards us. We, quite simply, know better. If one is honest about it, most of that video is an attempt for the content provider to convince himself of what an atheists is. He feels such a deep need because he is really having a hard time at it.


P.S.: Also, while it is not IMO a big deal, you should probably be made aware that this is explicity a forum for discussion of religious matters, as opposed to a safe space for theists or for religious people in general.

You may want to read the RF Mission Statement at RF Rules

 

[LuisDantas]

“It just doesn’t feel right” is not really a reasonable assumption is it? Also, I’m pretty sure atheists are about as diverse as diversity itself. Not all atheists are trolls, nor are they all nice people, not all atheists are scientifically clued up, nor are all atheists ignorant of science, not all atheists like vegetarian food, nor are all atheists carnivores... I think we should take the man at face value and not create a straw man of him based on unreasonable assumptions!

Except that we atheists have a fairly good sense of how we think, you know.

I suppose it is possible that the youtubber took his time selecting someone who he could deal with. But the video sure is unrepresentative either way.

 

[Mohsen]

My point exactly, Dear @Mohsen

You are actually taking as a premise - and an unrealistic, deeply inaccurate premise it is - that atheists are not supposed to be religious, and perhaps that there is something of real significance in the distiction between theists and atheists.

That premise, in and of itself, is a major hurdle in attaining actual mutual understanding between atheists and Muslims - and a chief reason why there is hardly any traction in Muslim Dawah (proselitism) directed towards us. We, quite simply, know better. If one is honest about it, most of that video is an attempt for the content provider to convince himself of what an atheists is. He feels such a deep need because he is really having a hard time at it.


P.S.: Also, while it is not IMO a big deal, you should probably be made aware that this is explicity a forum for discussion of religious matters, as opposed to a safe space for theists or for religious people in general.

You may want to read the RF Mission Statement at RF Rules

Noted!!!

 

[Mohsen]

Except that we atheists have a fairly good sense of how we think, you know.

You’ve just made a straw man! Assuming to speak for all atheists is pretty much unappealing to reason!

I suppose it is possible that the youtubber took his time selecting someone who he could deal with. But the video sure is unrepresentative either way.

I suppose it is possible as well, but not very probable. It’s possible that you are in a matrix and haven’t woken up - or are a positronic type brain inside of a robot with artificial memories and experiences... many things are theoretically possible. But these do not follow a sound reasoning and are most certainly not “factual statements”.

 

[LuisDantas]

You’ve just made a straw man! Assuming to speak for all atheists is pretty much unappealing to reason!

Hardly.

Straw men are something else entirely. Instead am claiming awareness of general trends in atheism above and beyond that of the video.

I suppose it is possible as well, but not very probable.

I agree. It really looks like a rehearsed dialogue instead.

It’s possible that you are in a matrix and haven’t woken up - or are a positronic type brain inside of a robot with artificial memories and experiences... many things are theoretically possible. But these do not follow a sound reasoning and are most certainly not “factual statements”.

Indeed.

 

[Mohsen]

Hardly.

Straw men are something else entirely. Instead am claiming awareness of general trends in atheism above and beyond that of the video.



I agree. It really looks like a rehearsed dialogue instead.



Indeed.

I think you may be unnaturally suspicious about atheists who have a different POV to you!

 

[LuisDantas]

I think you may be unnaturally suspicious about atheists who have a different POV to you!

I would have to meet them first, I suppose.

 

[YmirGF]

“It just doesn’t feel right” is not really a reasonable assumption is it?

Hence, I invoked the word "feel". I would have to examine "the atheists" comments, in depth, to ascertain why I am "feeling" that way. There is something in his comments that doesn't sound right.

I think we should take the man at face value and not create a straw man of him based on unreasonable assumptions!

I get that @Mohsen but that is also assuming the video is not a setup or crafted "interview" in order to further a narrative. It is not surprising that you would not see this possibility and would attempt to sweep aside that, highly probable, possibility.

Pro tip: I think you need to reexamine what the straw man argument actually is. It doesn't appear you have a firm grasp of the concept.

 

[Mohsen]

Hence, I invoked the word "feel". I would have to examine "the atheists" comments, in depth, to ascertain why I am "feeling" that way. There is something in his comments that doesn't sound right.

I get that @Mohsen but that is also assuming the video is not a setup or crafted "interview" in order to further a narrative. It is not surprising that you would not see this possibility and would attempt to sweep aside that, highly probable, possibility.

Pro tip: I think you need to reexamine what the straw man argument actually is. It doesn't appear you have a firm grasp of the concept.

Straw man is assuming someone’s position wrongly... I did it right!

It’s been interesting. I think this atheist in the video has made some of you quite uncomfortable.