There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

[metis]

I know you think it doesn't.

Your sarcasm is duly noted

 

[BilliardsBall]

If that happens have him give me a call. I live in Jerusalem.

Really? Like near the Mount of Olives, where our best people get buried near the top to be near Messiah when He comes--and where Jesus preached, was arrested, then ascended to Heaven?

 

[firedragon]

I don't believe I was the one who posted that, so please check back and let me know if there's something I forgot. Hey, at 75 years of age, I got forgetting down to a science.

No. It was not you. Did I address you? Oh, I do apologise. I think its not just age, but we are all getting old anyway.

 

[metis]

No. It was not you. Did I address you? Oh, I do apologise. I think its not just age, but we are all getting old anyway.

I prefer to use the word "mature".

 

[firedragon]

I prefer to use the word "mature".

I also use all kinds of substitute words.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Really? Like near the Mount of Olives, where our best people get buried near the top to be near Messiah when He comes--and where Jesus preached, was arrested, then ascended to Heaven?

Why not. I don't live that far away from the Mount of Olives. I assume that him calling me isn't impossible for him.

 

[Harel13]

Why not. I don't live that far away from the Mount of Olives. I assume that him calling me isn't impossible for him.

*Waves hand" Oh, call me next. I don't live far from Jerusalem.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Obviously he was not pleased but he did understand after I explained why I made that decision. He then tried to talk me into keeping both affiliations but I told him that I just can't do that.

Wait. You lost me. Why would your rabbi not be pleased with your choice if he beleived that Judaism and Christianity are following the same directives as it seemed you were implying? Based on what you wrote about him from the start I would have figured that he would have been 100% behind your decision. Also, why would a Torath Mosheh or Orthodox rabbi advise you to keep two affiliations? Are you saying that your rabbi told you to be Jewish and Christian at the same time?

If you don't mind me asking what did your family think of your decision to become Catholic and leave Judaism?

I won't divulge that, and I'm again actually surprised you asked. What's your point in asking?

1st, because you brought him up. 2nd, like I said. I know a number of people who are a part of the Carlebach communities here in Jerusalem. Based on what you wrote about your rabbi I would like to know who he is. It is not like a person's rabbi is a state secret. I have personally learned from Rabbi Marc Angel and now learn from Rabbi Ratzon Arousi, and others. See how easy that was.

Listen, if you don't believe me, just say so and we can then terminate this. As it is, your seeking of some of my more personal information bothers me, especially when it involves 3rd parties at the personal level.

If you didn't want me to ask why did you bring him up and some of the details of your situation. Prior to you mentioning him I didn't ask you about him at all. If it was personal I would think that you wouldn't have brought it up at all.

What also bothers me is that you did not tell the truth when it comes to the issue of the diversity of beliefs within Judaism, then you came back and deflected from that into all sorts of more personal requests for information that you expect me to hand over to you.

The problem is that you didn't understand what I even stated. I stated that there are Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews whold by the same halakhic rulings that are Sanhedrins/Mosaic Courts. It may be possible that you don't understand what that statements mean. I don't remember ever including anyone in that frame work who wasn't Torath Mosheh Jewish or Orthodox Jewish.

To put it another way, your branch ain't the only game in town. Therefore, saying anything that starts out with "We Jews..." is almost doomed from the start to misrepresent the reality of not only Jewish diversity but also the diversity found within Judaism as well.

I am actually not a part of branch of anything. Also, in my community we don't play games. The only Jews I included in what I wrote were Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews. Which brings me to what I seem to get from your point. It seems as if you are trying to say that Judaism and Christianity are in a type of conflict and that Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are trying to convert Christians to the Torah. Is that what your claim is?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Your sarcasm is duly noted

I have to keep this as light hearted as possible. I think you guys are taking this way to seriously. I keep getting the feeling that there is a type of anger when a Torath Mosheh Jew or Orthodox Jew says we have no requirement in converting or changing the world into Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews.

Kind of like the response of some on this thread is, "You Jews are wrong Christians are right. How dare you not become Christians and how dare you not try to convert us to Torath Mosheh."

Is that maybe what the problem is? Is that Christians want Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews to convince Christians to become Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews? If that is what you guys really want you can just say so - although it isn't necessary.

 

[metis]

Why would your rabbi not be pleased with your choice if he beleived that Judaism and Christianity are following the same directives as it seemed you were implying?

I never stated nor implied he believed that-- nor do I.

Also, why would a Torath Mosheh or Orthodox rabbi advise you to keep two affiliations?

I didn't say nor imply he was.

If you don't mind me asking what did your family think of your decision to become Catholic and leave Judaism?

They understood, but then again they ain't Jewish.

If it was personal I would think that you wouldn't have brought it up at all.

But I would never give you his name, especially without getting his permission.

The problem is that you didn't understand what I even stated. I stated that there are Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews whold by the same halakhic rulings that are Sanhedrins/Mosaic Courts. It may be possible that you don't understand what that statements mean.

I understand what you mean, however maybe here's where our disconnect might be since I didn't think you were referring to just your branch but to Judaism as a whole.

It seems as if you are trying to say that Judaism and Christianity are in a type of conflict and that Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are trying to convert Christians to the Torah. Is that what your claim is?

Nope-- never said nor implied that. Obviously, there are significant differences between the two, but I wouldn't go as far as saying "conflict". Instead, they by and large live in different worlds even though Judaism is the "mother" of Christianity and Islam.

What I have repeatedly done, and on different levels, is to try and help each understand the other since I have long had feet in both. Thus, my approach is the opposite of the "my way or the highway" approach used by so many fundamentalists.

 

[metis]

I keep getting the feeling that there is a type of anger when a Torath Mosheh Jew or Orthodox Jew says we have no requirement in converting or changing the world into Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews.

Probably from some, but definitely not from me. Matter of fact, I consider doing that to be quite unethical.

Kind of like the response of some on this thread is, "You Jews are wrong Christians are right. How dare you not become Christians and how dare you not try to convert us to Torath Mosheh."

Again, not my approach-- or even close to it.

Is that maybe what the problem is? Is that Christians want Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews to convince Christians to become Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews?

Again, not my thing.

If that is what you guys really want you can just say so - although it isn't necessary.

See above.

BTW, Christians are all over the board on this, and it's more the fundamentalist Christians that are far more apt to be insistent that one must leave their faith and convert to Christianity-- but usually only their branch of Christianity. Since you seem to feel besieged by some of them, welcome to the club.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I never stated nor implied he believed that-- nor do I.

So, then is it safe to assume that he agrees with my OP. I will definately like to meet him. Since you say he is a part of the Carlebach community I will look him up.

They understood, but then again they ain't Jewish.

Interesting.

But I would never give you his name, especially without getting his permission.

No need to now. I think I have this entire situation sorted out.

I understand what you mean, however maybe here's where our disconnect might be since I didn't think you were referring to just your branch but to Judaism as a whole.

If you think I was referring to "branches" that came out of Europe in the last 300 years when even in the OP I stated Torath Mosheh and you may not have understood what I was talking about. Especially in terms of what halakha from a Sanhedrin/Mosaic court means.

Especially in the light of the first statement of the OP being:

"In reality there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism are concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want, how they want, etc. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews). Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism, has existed and can exist, in a vacuum where Christianity is not present or never existed. That being the case, in a place where Christians have no interest in missionizing then Jews have no concern with Christian theology."​

Obviously, there are significant differences between the two, but I wouldn't go as far as saying "conflict". Instead, they by and large live in different worlds

Thus, they are not the same thing and they are not based on the same principles. Various words mean different things to both sides and the Torath Mosheh all of which was covered in the OP as I stated:

"According to most Jews, in reality, Christian theology is not a topic that really involves Jews since we are not in competition with any of the religions of the world. Further, since there is no Jewish requirement to convert or convince people to be Jewish or accept Jewish infomation thus we have no real stake in the vs. kinds of debates. When Jews get involved in topics like this it is often when mis-information is presented by those not Jewish about Jews, Jewish views, Jewish history, and Jewish texts (IN HEBREW) are being presented (otherwise most Jews wouldn't care) or when Christian missionaries are targeting Jews to try to convert Jews to Christianity."​

What I have repeatedly done, and on different levels, is to try and help each understand the other since I have long had feet in both. Thus, my approach is the opposite of the "my way or the highway" approach used by so many fundamentalists.

And this is the point that makes me think that Christians don't like the fact that

"As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism are concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want, how they want, etc. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews). Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism, has existed and can exist, in a vacuum where Christianity is not present or never existed. That being the case, in a place where Christians have no interest in missionizing then Jews have no concern with Christian theology."
​

The above is not a my way or the highway statement. It is like saying, take what ever high way you want. Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews are not on a highway - we are relaxing in the park. If, as a Catholic you feel the need to have your feet in various place....more power to you. Torah Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have different shoe and foot placement needs/requirements.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Probably from some, but definitely not from me. Matter of fact, I consider doing that to be quite unethical.

Thus, the OP also agrees that is unethical.

Again, not my approach-- or even close to it.

Again, not my thing.

Good to hear may there be more who also make such not their thing.

BTW, Christians are all over the board on this, and it's more the fundamentalist Christians that are far more apt to be insistent that one must leave their faith and convert to Christianity-- but usually only their branch of Christianity. Since you seem to feel besieged by some of them, welcome to the club.

Exactly, so if those fundamentalist were really more honest and satisfied with their sitaution they would recognize that there are some people in the world who don't want to join them. See, now you are getting the point.

 

[metis]

I will definately like to meet him. Since you say he is a part of the Carlebach community I will look him up.

No, I didn't say that. He studied at one of Carlebach's shuls on a sabbatical for several months about 22 years ago. He's now retired and lives in the UK.

The above is not a my way or the highway statement. It is like saying, take what ever high way you want

Since I consider Gandhi to be my main mentor, that's also where I'm coming from.

If, as a Catholic you feel the need to have your feet in various place....more power to you.

Frankly, I feel comfortable at almost any place of worship or meditation. I can walk right into my old synagogue quite comfortably, as I have prior to covid, and feel right at home. I still keep contact with quite a few people there, and I worked with the homeless program there two years ago. Our oldest daughter and her two kids are members.

Torah Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have different shoe and foot placement needs/requirements.

Each group has it's own "shoe and foot placement", so yours isn't the Lone Ranger.

Exactly, so if those fundamentalist were really more honest and satisfied with their sitaution they would recognize that there are some people in the world who don't want to join them.

Not quite as they believe in "replacement theology", which they believe is necessary for "salvation". So, they think they're trying to help you. If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother.

And they by no means are the only ones who have such theological self-centeredness, and that also is found in some elements of Judaism as well. Such attitudes can be found in all of the religions, including yours, and I've experienced this for myself both in Israel and here in the States. Thus, as a priest at our church used to say, "When you point your finger at someone else, note that there are three fingers pointing right back at you".

See, now you are getting the point.

Maybe it's time to realize that it's also the other way around as you have continuously pegged me wrong.

 

[PruePhillip]

Okay. Fine comment.

We at least agree then that the non-Jewish nations do not need to become Jewish and learn Hebrew, right?

I don't even know where such an idea would even come from.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No, I didn't say that. He studied at one of Carlebach's shuls on a sabbatical for several months about 22 years ago. He's now retired and lives in the UK.

Okay. Got it. Now I understand better. For a minute there I was thinking you were talking about an Orthodox rabbi who served as a rabbi at one of Carlebach's shuls. Thank you for clarifying.

Frankly, I feel comfortable at almost any place of worship or meditation. I can walk right into my old synagogue quite comfortably, as I have prior to covid, and feel right at home. I still keep contact with quite a few people there, and I worked with the homeless program there two years ago. Our oldest daughter and her two kids are members.

Okay.

Each group has it's own "shoe and foot placement", so yours isn't the Lone Ranger.

As I didn't mention anything about the lone ranger and the shoes of others, what I can say is that those who wear the shoes called "Torath Mosheh" are Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews. Those wearing the shoes with the Torath Mosheh logo on them hold by the rulings of the Sanhedrins/Mosaic courts when it comes to shoes and foot placement.

The shoes with the Torath Mosheh logo on them are not the same as shoes that have other logos or have no logos at all. There are some people in the world who don't wear shoes. There are some people who make their own shoes. So, there way more options than even wearing shoes. See no lone ranger in any of that.

Not quite as they believe in "replacement theology", which they believe is necessary for "salvation". So, they think they're trying to help you. If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother.

Well, that is strange. Because I feel as if they did care and if they really wanted to convince me they would take me up on my Zoom offer. Yet, I guess it isn't that serious to them and maybe it shouldn't be so they can wear their shoes. Though, from your description, it sounds like they are the lone ranger you were referring to.

Maybe it's time to realize that it's also the other way around as you have continuously pegged me wrong.

I haven't pegged you as anything. Everything you have said about your background I have accepted. You are who say you are as far as I am concerned. The OP stands perfectly fine as is. Thus, there is no conflict. The nations all have purpose and they all have value. They neither need to become join the Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jewish communities and they don't need to learn Hebrew. As it is said:

תורה צוה לנו משה, מורשה קהִלת יעקב​

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't even know where such an idea would even come from.

If you go back and look at the numerous threads, and some of the comments, you will see it. Yet, at the end of the day good to know that the OP is fully understood and agreed upon, in one way or another by all. Now let there be peace on the RF landstride.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why not. I don't live that far away from the Mount of Olives. I assume that him calling me isn't impossible for him.

He's calling you now through me, in my humble opinion, and I've not been to the Mount of Olives since the lockdown.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

He's calling you now through me, in my humble opinion, and I've not been to the Mount of Olives since the lockdown.

In your humble opinion? If he had actually called me through you, wouldn't you know that for a fact? Also, you say he called through you. Yet, not long ago JW said he called through them and after a Mormon said he called through them? Do you guys all have the same exact beleifs about him?

Also, if you haven't been to the Mount of Olives since the lockdown that means he definately didn't call me through you. (Remember I said for him to call me when he gets the Mount of Olives)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

He's calling you now through me, in my humble opinion, and I've not been to the Mount of Olives since the lockdown.

Also, if you talk to him can you ask him why no one wants to take me up on my Zoom offer? Thanks.