There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

[Ehav4Ever]

So when Job speaks of his Redeemer is being alive and one day standing on the earth,
who do you think he was speaking of, or is he yet to come?
And when Daniel said the enemy would come in like a flood and destroy the temple,
the altar, Jerusalem and he to whom all things belong, who was he speaking of, or is
this yet to happen also?

ps don't use Zoom, don't even know what it is. Text here, on this site, is fine.

I can explain all that and I can even get you set up in Zoom or another medium you profer. Maybe even Skype. You don't have to any work what so ever. I will do all the work to set it up.

Besides, how did you just all of a sudden end up in the middle of Job somewhere? The way you understand Job is to read it from start to finish. You didn't just get that from the NT or a Christian commentary somewhere did you?

 

[Colt]

The Israelites were chosen to be the host nation, a monotheistic people who could provide the foundation for the Son of God incarnate. But between Abrahams agreement and the Son of Gods arrival, the Jewish people developed a religion all about being chosen. They lost site of what they were chosen for. During the times of Jesus the idea of sharing their God with the Gentile world whom they looked down on with utter contempt, was simply a bridge to far.

 

[PruePhillip]

I can explain all that and I can even get you set up in Zoom or another medium you profer. Maybe even Skype. You don't have to any work what so ever. I will do all the work to set it up.

Besides, how did you just all of a sudden end up in the middle of Job somewhere? The way you understand Job is to read it from start to finish. You didn't just get that from the NT or a Christian commentary somewhere did you?

Sure, you can up with things right in the midst of Proverbs or Psalms. The bible isn't a
strictly linear thing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sure, you can up with things right in the midst of Proverbs or Psalms. The bible isn't a
strictly linear thing.

The Hebrew Tanakh and the Christian English bible aren't the same thing. If you are willing I can show you in Hebrew text and I can even bring in impartial people to fact check me. It would take less than 10 minutes in a Zoom/or other format where I present to you the text in Hebrew and answer all the questions you asked earlier. Yet, I can understand that this topic may not be important to you in that way. So, you don't have to if you really don't want to.

 

[PruePhillip]

The Hebrew Tanakh and the Christian English bible aren't the same thing. If you are willing I can show you in Hebrew text and I can even bring in impartial people to fact check me. It would take less than 10 minutes in a Zoom/or other format where I present to you the text in Hebrew and answer all the questions you asked earlier. Yet, I can understand that this topic may not be important to you in that way. So, you don't have to if you really don't want to.

I often like to check in the Interlinear.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I often like to check in the Interlinear.

Yeah, here in Israel we don't use those. It is like water. We prefer to get it from a pure source. Thus, we speak it in Hebrew, write it in Hebrew, read it in Hebrew, live it in Hebrew, and teach it to our children in Hebrew.

 

[BilliardsBall]

In reality there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism are concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want, how they want, etc. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews). Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism, has existed and can exist, in a vacuum where Christianity is not present or never existed. That being the case, in a place where Christians have no interest in missionizing then Jews have no concern with Christian theology.

According to most Jews, in reality, Christian theology is not a topic that really involves Jews since we are not in competition with any of the religions of the world. Further, since there is no Jewish requirement to convert or convince people to be Jewish or accept Jewish infomation thus we have no real stake in the vs. kinds of debates. When Jews get involved in topics like this it is often when mis-information is presented by those not Jewish about Jews, Jewish views, Jewish history, and Jewish texts (IN HEBREW) are being presented (otherwise most Jews wouldn't care) or when Christian missionaries are targeting Jews to try to convert Jews to Christianity.

Even the terminology used in "English" in this type of back and forth religious debate is not a Jews vs. Christian matter because if it were to take place in Hebrew you could end the discussion in about 10 minutes.

For example, if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate. It would be 100% clear what the Jewish text (The Hebrew Tanakh) really says and what it does not say. I.e. the tricks are played with the topic by way of translation into Greek or English.

Further, Torah based Jews do not consider the New Testament to be historically accurate in various places, we consider the NT of unreliable authorship from start to finish, and we also view the NT's theological content to be foreign to Torath Mosheh. YET, as far as Torah based Jews are concerned this is not something that we must challenge Christians on. I.e. if Christians accept it then it is not our place to get involved.

Lastly, the "English word" messiah, along with a number of other "English" words used in conversations like this, means one thing to Christians and it means something completely different to Jews. For example:

• Messiah: Christian definition = Jesus, dying for sins, sometimes god/sometimes not, personal salvation. (Definitions based on Greek NT and the Church Fathers).

• messiah: Jewish definition = not the correct term, but only used due to presence in English speaking countries. Real word (משיח) meaning someone anointed with oil to do a particular job. Can include Kohanim and also Kings of the Jewish Torah based nation. One particular individual will be a future human king in the land of Israel from the tribe of Yehudah. Said individual will be a paternal descendant of David through Shlomo ben Dawith which will be proven before a Jewish Mosaic court in the land of Israel. This Davidic king will lead by example and teach Torah and Halakha to the Jewish nation - as it is taught in the Mishnah with a standing Mosaic court, Temple in Jerusalem, Kohanim and Levyim working in the Temple, and all Israeli tribes with returned land rights. Said future Davidic king will lead the return of Torah based Israeli/Jewish nation which will facilitate a return of Torah based institutions throughout the land of Israel and a return of descendants of all Jewish tribes to the land of Israel. This future Davidic king will have children, in his lifetime, and one of his sons, and grandsons, will be kings after he passes away. (Definitions based on Hebrew Tanakh/Aramaic Tanakh/transmission of information passed on from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) through the prophets of Israel and also the Torah based leaders of the Jewish people.)

Thus, there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. You can take the vs. out and simply title such a thread "Christianity: [fill in the blank]" and you can do a seperate thread titled, "Judaism: The Future Davidic King" where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used w/o translation and basically be done with the whole thing quick and fast.

You've perfectly described Mashiach Melekh Yeshua:

Real word (משיח) meaning someone anointed with oil to do a particular job. Can include Kohanim and also Kings of the Jewish Torah based nation. One particular individual will be a future human king in the land of Israel from the tribe of Yehudah. Said individual will be a paternal descendant of David through Shlomo ben Dawith which will be proven before a Jewish Mosaic court in the land of Israel. This Davidic king will lead by example and teach Torah and Halakha to the Jewish nation - as it is taught in the Mishnah with a standing Mosaic court, Temple in Jerusalem, Kohanim and Levyim working in the Temple, FIRST ADVENT

and all Israeli tribes with returned land rights. Said future Davidic king will lead the return of Torah based Israeli/Jewish nation which will facilitate a return of Torah based institutions throughout the land of Israel and a return of descendants of all Jewish tribes to the land of Israel. This future Davidic king will have children, in his lifetime, and one of his sons, and grandsons, will be kings after he passes away. (Definitions based on Hebrew Tanakh/Aramaic Tanakh/transmission of information passed on from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) through the prophets of Israel and also the Torah based leaders of the Jewish people.) RETURN

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You've perfectly described Mashiach Melekh Yeshua:

As we say here in Israel.

לא היה ולא נברא​

In other words never heard of such a person with such a long name but then again it isn't relevant to me.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

RETURN

If that happens have him give me a call. I live in Jerusalem.

 

[metis]

I think the problem is that many Christians don't understand what it means for Jews to be on the same page. It means something different for us.

FYI, I belonged to a synagogue for over 20 years, plus I co-taught our Lunch & Learn program with my rabbi. And no, it doesn't mean "something different for us", and the proof of this is the variations within the commentaries and also the multiple branches within Judaism.

BTW: the two Jews three opinions thing is an internal Jewish joke that got out. There are a lot of things where we are allowed to have 3 opinions on - especially when we are in exile like we still are right now. Practical halakha when there is a Mosaic court in the land of Israel s not one of them. Thus, all Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews agree on things that were rulings from a Mosaic court that is standing in the land of Israel.

Again, not all Jews are on the same page, including how halacha is looked at.

Let me recommend that you stop the condescension, OK?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

FYI, I belonged to a synagogue for over 20 years, plus I co-taught our Lunch & Learn program with my rabbi. And no, it doesn't mean "something different for us", and the proof of this is the variations within the commentaries and also the multiple branches within Judaism.

If that is what you want to beleive I am not here to convince you not to be Catholic. YET, if what you are claiming about your rabbi is true then I have a few questions:

1. What was your rabbi's name?
2. Was he Orthodox? Was he Reform? Was he Consersative?
3. Did your rabbi hold by Mishnah Torah, Shulchan Aruch, or Mishnah Berurah?
4. What was the name of the synagogue?
5. Did they teach you how to read and understand a Hebrew text? If yes, can you read Hebrew now?
6. If when you knew this rabbi you didn't know Hebrew how do you know if anything he told you was true?
7. What did this rabbi think about your decision to become a ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic?

As, I wrote before all Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews agree on halakha that comes from a Sanhedrin/Mosaic court. Something that isn't halakha and doesn't come from a Sanhedrin/Mosaic court we don't have a requirement to agreement. Is it possible that the rabbi you mentioned simply didn't teach you about that or maybe you forgot a few things.

For example, can you tell me of one halakha that comes from a Sanhedrin/Mosaic court that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't agree on?

 

[firedragon]

In reality there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism are concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want, how they want, etc. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews). Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism, has existed and can exist, in a vacuum where Christianity is not present or never existed. That being the case, in a place where Christians have no interest in missionizing then Jews have no concern with Christian theology.

According to most Jews, in reality, Christian theology is not a topic that really involves Jews since we are not in competition with any of the religions of the world. Further, since there is no Jewish requirement to convert or convince people to be Jewish or accept Jewish infomation thus we have no real stake in the vs. kinds of debates. When Jews get involved in topics like this it is often when mis-information is presented by those not Jewish about Jews, Jewish views, Jewish history, and Jewish texts (IN HEBREW) are being presented (otherwise most Jews wouldn't care) or when Christian missionaries are targeting Jews to try to convert Jews to Christianity.

Even the terminology used in "English" in this type of back and forth religious debate is not a Jews vs. Christian matter because if it were to take place in Hebrew you could end the discussion in about 10 minutes.

For example, if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate. It would be 100% clear what the Jewish text (The Hebrew Tanakh) really says and what it does not say. I.e. the tricks are played with the topic by way of translation into Greek or English.

Further, Torah based Jews do not consider the New Testament to be historically accurate in various places, we consider the NT of unreliable authorship from start to finish, and we also view the NT's theological content to be foreign to Torath Mosheh. YET, as far as Torah based Jews are concerned this is not something that we must challenge Christians on. I.e. if Christians accept it then it is not our place to get involved.

Lastly, the "English word" messiah, along with a number of other "English" words used in conversations like this, means one thing to Christians and it means something completely different to Jews. For example:

• Messiah: Christian definition = Jesus, dying for sins, sometimes god/sometimes not, personal salvation. (Definitions based on Greek NT and the Church Fathers).

• messiah: Jewish definition = not the correct term, but only used due to presence in English speaking countries. Real word (משיח) meaning someone anointed with oil to do a particular job. Can include Kohanim and also Kings of the Jewish Torah based nation. One particular individual will be a future human king in the land of Israel from the tribe of Yehudah. Said individual will be a paternal descendant of David through Shlomo ben Dawith which will be proven before a Jewish Mosaic court in the land of Israel. This Davidic king will lead by example and teach Torah and Halakha to the Jewish nation - as it is taught in the Mishnah with a standing Mosaic court, Temple in Jerusalem, Kohanim and Levyim working in the Temple, and all Israeli tribes with returned land rights. Said future Davidic king will lead the return of Torah based Israeli/Jewish nation which will facilitate a return of Torah based institutions throughout the land of Israel and a return of descendants of all Jewish tribes to the land of Israel. This future Davidic king will have children, in his lifetime, and one of his sons, and grandsons, will be kings after he passes away. (Definitions based on Hebrew Tanakh/Aramaic Tanakh/transmission of information passed on from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) through the prophets of Israel and also the Torah based leaders of the Jewish people.)

Thus, there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. You can take the vs. out and simply title such a thread "Christianity: [fill in the blank]" and you can do a seperate thread titled, "Judaism: The Future Davidic King" where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used w/o translation and basically be done with the whole thing quick and fast.

Its a pretty informative post I must say, yet you should understand predominantly two things.

1. You made the topic called "no judaism vs christianity" but you did the exact opposite. In my opinion, your post was mostly "Judaism vs Christianity".
2. This era, I would say maybe the last decade or two has seen many Jewish scholars who have analysed the New Testament extensively. And the apparent pro Jewish but anti Christian missionary and theology scholars from the Jewish community has increased. Maybe it is not that famous and not so frequent the Jewish population is so small in comparison, but it is significant with some truly fantastic jewish scholars. I mean, truly fantastic.

It exists.

 

[firedragon]

You make a good point that much of the discussion about Christianity and Judaism puts them at odds, when in reality they are often talking past each other with completely different understanding of certain concepts and terms.

However, it does strike me that if you're right about the Hebrew Bible being so allegedly clear, why do all Jews not agree with each other about how to understand or apply it? And this is not only the case now, it has been the case for millenia. The claim very much reminds me of Christians who claim that if other Christians "just read the Bible" they'd come to agree with them. It just doesn't work out that way in practice.

Im curious to know which verse and which rendition you are speaking about.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

1. You made the topic called "no judaism vs christianity" but you did the exact opposite. In my opinion, your post was mostly "Judaism vs Christianity".

I didn't do that. Other people did that. Besides, I have made no point of trying to convince the Christians who have responded on this thread that they should do something different with their religious life as it applies to them. I have also made no claims about their history and how they came to exist as they do. Thus, I am pitting Judaism against Christianity. I think there are some who don't like the fact that there is no conflict between Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews and Christians. Maybe some people want there to be a conflict, at least in some way.

2. This era, I would say maybe the last decade or two has seen many Jewish scholars who have analysed the New Testament extensively. And the apparent pro Jewish but anti Christian missionary and theology scholars from the Jewish community has increased. Maybe it is not that famous and not so frequent the Jewish population is so small in comparison, but it is significant with some truly fantastic jewish scholars. I mean, truly fantastic.
It exists.

So are you saying that Christian missionaries who target Jews are a good thing? If so, are you willing to accept that they have a pretty bad success rate?

Concerning Jewish scholars who have analysed the New Testament extensively. That happened more than 1,500 years ago. Jews have always known what is in the NT, more or less, it just isn't relevant to us nor does it need to be. It makes me feel like some Christians aren't happy with their religion and what it means to them thus they want to missionize to us. If the NT makes Christians happy the Jewish response - be happy, enjoy, etc. We want Christians to be happy w/o us because you wouldn't enjoy our presence in your midst. Look how much stress I have brought them with this topic.

For Christians it shouldn't matter what I think about the NT. It doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks about the Hebrew Tanakh?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Im curious to know which verse and which rendition you are speaking about.

These.

 

[firedragon]

I didn't do that. Other people did that. Besides, I have made no point of trying to convince the Christians who have responded on this thread that they should do something different with their religious life as it applies to them. I have also made no claims about their history and how they came to exist as they do. Thus, I am pitting Judaism against Christianity. I think there are some who don't like the fact that there is no conflict between Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews and Christians. Maybe some people want there to be a conflict, at least in some way.

I was referring to your OP. But that's not important I guess.

So are you saying that Christian missionaries who target Jews are a good thing?

No.

If so, are you willing to accept that they have a pretty bad success rate?

Maybe.

Concerning Jewish scholars who have analysed the New Testament extensively. That happened more than 1,500 years ago. Jews have always known what is in the NT,

Please quote me this Jewish scholar who did that 1,500 years ago. Im interested in knowing who this is. Its not that I didnt say Jews never had scholarship on the NT and I dont know why you had taken this so negatively.

But, I like to know who this Jewish scholar of the NT was who lived 1,500 years ago and what scholarship he presented.

Thanks in advance.

 

[firedragon]

These.

Ah. So you just wanted to show that "Jews disagreed with Jews" and when asked which verse you are speaking about for some education in the subject you thought that showing some Jewish verses would show how superior you are and how inferior others are and are incapable of having a decent discussion with you.

So that's why you spoke of "conversation over" in your OP and opted to answer for someone else to propagate yourself.

Nevertheless, you still didnt answer my question. Since you volunteered for another, let me cut and paste the question you responded to quite inadequately.

"Im curious to know which verse and which rendition you are speaking about."

Please try and respond to the full sentence.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ah. So you just wanted to show that "Jews disagreed with Jews" and when asked which verse you are speaking about for some education in the subject you thought that showing some Jewish verses would show how superior you are and how inferior others are and are incapable of having a decent discussion with you.

Being different doesn't mean inferior. I know a lot of Christians who are great people. They just don't read Hebrew. Yet, they have no requirement to and that is perfectly fine. Just like it is not my lot in life to go by the NT. It is better for Christians that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't become Christians. The world is better off by us accepting that we are not the same and being happy in particular situation on this wonderful world we live on.

Thus, there is no competition between Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews and Christians. We are simply two seperate groups of people on different paths in the world. We Jews are not trying to make Christians into Jews and Christians who are not trying to convince Jews to become Christians are in good standing with us. Thus, there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. At least to us Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews there isn't.

So that's why you spoke of "conversation over" in your OP and opted to answer for someone else to propagate yourself.

You will have to excuse me. I have been living in Israel long enough that some of my English has been dropping off bit by bit. I don't remember what the statement propogate yourself is supposed to me. Yet, I will simply assume that you are calling a real nice and stand up kind of guy. Someone who you wouldn't mind dog sitting or cat sitting while you are out of town.

Nevertheless, you still didnt answer my question. Since you volunteered for another, let me cut and paste the question you responded to quite inadequately.
"Im curious to know which verse and which rendition you are speaking about."
Please try and respond to the full sentence.
Thanks in advance.

I provided the same answer I gave earlier. I simply provided it in a way that someone who doesn't know Hebrew could google translate words and pretend as if they understand Hebrew. (This has happened a number of times on RF when it comes to topics of the Hebrew Tanakh). If those people who have done this in the past can't read what I posted and then tell everyone what it is then it speaks to what I wrote in the OP.

Just like I can't read ancient Chinese and a picture of a Chinese text prevents me from Google translating it and then pretending like I understand said Chinese text better than someone who is fluent in ancient Chinese.

 

[metis]

If that is what you want to beleive I am not here to convince you not to be Catholic. YET, if what you are claiming about your rabbi is true then I have a few questions:

1. What was your rabbi's name?
2. Was he Orthodox? Was he Reform? Was he Consersative?
3. Did your rabbi hold by Mishnah Torah, Shulchan Aruch, or Mishnah Berurah?
4. What was the name of the synagogue?
5. Did they teach you how to read and understand a Hebrew text? If yes, can you read Hebrew now?
6. If when you knew this rabbi you didn't know Hebrew how do you know if anything he told you was true?
7. What did this rabbi think about your decision to become a ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic?

As, I wrote before all Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews agree on halakha that comes from a Sanhedrin/Mosaic court. Something that isn't halakha and doesn't come from a Sanhedrin/Mosaic court we don't have a requirement to agreement. Is it possible that the rabbi you mentioned simply didn't teach you about that or maybe you forgot a few things.

For example, can you tell me of one halakha that comes from a Sanhedrin/Mosaic court that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't agree on?

The above has little relevance to what I posted, namely that Judaism is not at all monolithic.

Also, my decision to become Catholic is related to the belief I have that no religion nor denomination has a monopoly on the Truth, plus there's a Catholic church walking distance from my home that she's belonged to for 46 years, as my wife has always been a devout Catholic and was baptized as such back in Italy in 1948. There were other reasons but that's not pertinent per this discussion.

BTW, I davened at one of Shlomo Carlebach's synagogues in Jerusalem as my rabbi studied there. Of course, that and $5 can get me a coffee at Starbucks.

 

[firedragon]

I provided the same answer I gave earlier. I simply provided it in a way that someone who doesn't know Hebrew could google translate words and pretend as if they understand Hebrew. (This has happened a number of times on RF when it comes to topics of the Hebrew Tanakh). If those people who have done this in the past can't read what I posted and then tell everyone what it is then it speaks to what I wrote in the OP.

Just like I can't read ancient Chinese and a picture of a Chinese text prevents me from Google translating it and then pretending like I understand said Chinese text better than someone who is fluent in ancient Chinese.

Thats not relevant.

Here you go again.

"Im curious to know which verse and which rendition you are speaking about."