There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

[firedragon]

The above has little relevance to what I posted, namely that Judaism is not at all monolithic.

Also, my decision to become Catholic is related to the belief I have that no religion nor denomination has a monopoly on the Truth, plus there's a Catholic church walking distance from my home that she's belonged to for 46 years, as my wife has always been a devout Catholic and was baptized as such back in Italy in 1948. There were other reasons but that's not pertinent per this discussion.

BTW, I davened at one of Shlomo Carlebach's synagogues in Jerusalem as my rabbi studied there. Of course, that and $5 can get me a coffee at Starbucks.

Also this question please.

Please quote me this Jewish scholar who did that 1,500 years ago. Im interested in knowing who this is. Its not that I didnt say Jews never had scholarship on the NT and I dont know why you had taken this so negatively.

But, I like to know who this Jewish scholar of the NT was who lived 1,500 years ago and what scholarship he presented.

Thanks in advance.

 

[metis]

Also this question please.

Please quote me this Jewish scholar who did that 1,500 years ago. Im interested in knowing who this is. Its not that I didnt say Jews never had scholarship on the NT and I dont know why you had taken this so negatively.

But, I like to know who this Jewish scholar of the NT was who lived 1,500 years ago and what scholarship he presented.

Thanks in advance.

I don't know what this is a reference to, so could you clarify?

BTW, this is my last post for today, but I'll be back sometime tomorrow. Take care.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The above has little relevance to what I posted.

I know you think it doesn't.

TheAlso, my decision to become Catholic is related to the belief I have that no religion nor denomination has a monopoly on the Truth, plus there's a Catholic church walking distance from my home that she's belonged to for 46 years, as my wife has always been a devout Catholic and was baptized as such back in Italy in 1948. There were other reasons but that's not pertinent per this discussion.

That is not what I asked. I asked what the rabbi you mentioned thought of your decision. Please remember what the OP was. If what you are saying is true then he would have jumped for joy at your decision. Did he? If not, what were his thoughts? Based on what you described I can imagine what his reaction may have been.

Besides, I didn't mention anything about monopolies on truth. You may need to re-read the OP.

The
BTW, I davened at one of Shlomo Carlebach's synagogues in Jerusalem as my rabbi studied there. Of course, that and $5 can get me a coffee at Starbucks.

Great. I know some people from there. What was the rabbi's name at the time you were talking about? Maybe I can look him up and see if he agrees with what I wrote in the OP.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thats not relevant.

Here you go again.

"Im curious to know which verse and which rendition you are speaking about."

If you read the OP you would know why posted the Hebrew text w/o translation. If you are willing I can set up a Zoom to go through the Hebrew text with you. I can also find someone who is not on my side to mediate and determine if I am being honest or not. Would you be willing to do that?

 

[firedragon]

If you read the OP you would know why posted the Hebrew text w/o translation. If you are willing I can set up a Zoom to go through the Hebrew text with you. I can also find someone who is not on my side to mediate and determine if I am being honest or not. Would you be willing to do that?

With that question of mine ("Im curious to know which verse and which rendition you are speaking about.") I did not address your OP, I did not ask you, I asked someone else, and you are answering something else.

Its absurd, so that's the end of it.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know what this is a reference to, so could you clarify?

BTW, this is my last post for today, but I'll be back sometime tomorrow. Take care.

Yes here is the clarification.

You said: Concerning Jewish scholars who have analysed the New Testament extensively. That happened more than 1,500 years ago.

So I asked: Please quote me this Jewish scholar who did that 1,500 years ago.

So please do name this Jewish scholar and show what his scholarship on the NT was.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I did not address your OP, I did not ask you, I asked someone else, and you are answering something else.
Its absurd, so that's the end of it.

No problem.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Earlier, in post #74, I made the statement "Concerning Jewish scholars who have analysed the New Testament extensively. That happened more than 1,500 years ago. Jews have always known what is in the NT, more or less, it just isn't relevant to us nor does it need to be."

Below is the information about what I was talking about.

To start off with, I didn’t note one scholar but instead I wrote Jewish scholars (plural) prior to about 1,500 years ago. So, according both Rav Saadya Gaon and Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon stated that Daniel 11:14 (ובני פריצי עמך, ינשאו להעמיד חזון--ונכשלו) is a prediction about Jesus and what Jesus would cause to happen to Jews.

Rabbi Akiva knew about various Christion texts that existed during the 1st cent and they are a part of what he called (ספרים חיצונם) which he said Torath Mosheh Jews should not approach. Also, Rav Yosef who spoke of the (ספרי מינים) was referencing Christian and non-Christian texts of his time. Further, the information found in the Toldot Yeshu is drawn from what Jesus scholars in the 4th century and after knew of various NT texts that existed at that time. There is a halakhic requirement for certain rabbis to know about various topics in order for them to make rulings on issues that relate to those topics. So, there are rabbis whose expertise was to know what Avodah Zara and what was in Christian texts so that if a matter needed to addressed they would have knowledge of the ins and outs. Yohanan ben haNapah would be added to the group of who would have known.

Further, Rabbi Saadya Gaon, Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon, and Rabbi Mosheh ben-Nachman all knew about things mentioned in the NT due to early generations of rabbis who transmitted what in some of their earlier text.

I hope that helps.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yeah, here in Israel we don't use those. It is like water. We prefer to get it from a pure source. Thus, we speak it in Hebrew, write it in Hebrew, read it in Hebrew, live it in Hebrew, and teach it to our children in Hebrew.

Reminds me of the Muslims - to 'understand' their book you need to learn Arabic.
And the Catholics - to understand the bible you need to learn Latin.

Meanwhile the rest of us...

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Reminds me of the Muslims - to 'understand' their book you need to learn Arabic.
And the Catholics - to understand the bible you need to learn Latin.

Meanwhile the rest of us...

Great comment BUT you forgot a few important points.

1. If a Muslim or a Catholic were to tell to me that the only way to correctly understand their text is to engage it in the language it was originally written on I would say....."Okay. That is perfectly fine by me and it makes sense. It is not like I need to read Muslim or Catholic texts to begin with. That would be like someone pulling out a Declaration of Indenpdence in Chinese and claiming that it on the level of or superioro to the original when the original in English is 100% available for someone to learn from in English."
   • Imagine what would happen if I took the NT John chapter 1 in Hebrew and came to conclusions about it that don't match was written in the oldest Greek NT texts of John and also don't match any known Christian interpretation. I think most Christians would rightly so say that the Greek is the source of the understanding and noy my personal Hebrew translation.
2. It is not like Jews have a concept that the world must become Jewish. The Jewish concept is that all nations and peoples of the world have their cultures which is beautiful and to be respected.
3. Also, since Jews don't have a concept of hell that is an eternal lake of fire punishment for non-beleivers it makes sense that Jews are not concerned with trying to proselytize to the non-Jewish world.
4. Further, I think we all know that most people could care less what is in Jewish texts or even what we Jews have been historicall saying about them. It is not like anyone's feelings are being hurt by Jews being so proud of our national, historical, and cultural language that we are required to use the Hebrew Tanakh.
5. Lastly, I almost get the impression that there are people who are angry that we Jews don't proselytize. I.e. because we are not out knocking on doors and passing out pamplets about being Jewish while trying to convince the world to be Jewish there are some people who are bothered by that.

So, now the above along with your comments we have a more complete picture and we are finally on the same page.

 

[PruePhillip]

Great comment BUT you forgot a few important points.

1. If a Muslim or a Catholic were to tell to me that the only way to correctly understand their text is to engage it in the language it was originally written on I would say....."Okay. That is perfectly fine by me and it makes sense. It is not like I need to read Muslim or Catholic texts to begin with. That would be like someone pulling out a Declaration of Indenpdence in Chinese and claiming that it on the level of or superioro to the original when the original in English is 100% available for someone to learn from in English."
   • Imagine what would happen if I took the NT John chapter 1 in Hebrew and came to conclusions about it that don't match was written in the oldest Greek NT texts of John and also don't match any known Christian interpretation. I think most Christians would rightly so say that the Greek is the source of the understanding and noy my personal Hebrew translation.
2. It is not like Jews have a concept that the world must become Jewish. The Jewish concept is that all nations and peoples of the world have their cultures which is beautiful and to be respected.
3. Also, since Jews don't have a concept of hell that is an eternal lake of fire punishment for non-beleivers it makes sense that Jews are not concerned with trying to proselytize to the non-Jewish world.
4. Further, I think we all know that most people could care less what is in Jewish texts or even what we Jews have been historicall saying about them. It is not like anyone's feelings are being hurt by Jews being so proud of our national, historical, and cultural language that we are required to use the Hebrew Tanakh.
5. Lastly, I almost get the impression that there are people who are angry that we Jews don't proselytize. I.e. because we are not out knocking on doors and passing out pamplets about being Jewish while trying to convince the world to be Jewish there are some people who are bothered by that.

So, now the above along with your comments we have a more complete picture and we are finally on the same page.

Look, I am part Jew myself. Planned on going to Israel this year, but.... oh well, another time.
One thing I love about scripture is that it can shine in any language. It's simple, uses symbolic
language and incorporates many human stories that don't care for translations.
We have this saying in Christianity that people can argue all they like about "Greek translations"
and the like, but the stories and Example speak for themselves.
And I don't really believe in a lake of fire. That's symbolic language. You can't have 'eternal darkness'
and a lake of fire - doesn't make sense. But was it Moses who spoke of being 'blotted out' of the book
of life. That speaks to me of what really happens - separation from G-d.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Look, I am part Jew myself.

Mazal Tov

We have this saying in Christianity that people can argue all they like about "Greek translations"
and the like, but the stories and Example speak for themselves.

We have a saying among Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews. Twice in Hebrew and once in Aramaic.

If the non Torah based world has texts in their languages that work for them. Great! Enjoy!

Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have no need for those translations of course, just like an American doesn't use a Chinese translation of the Constitution to understand the text, which was originally penned in English. I am sure that there are Chinese who find inpiration in from Chinese translation of the Constitution but American lawmakers do not use translations of the Constitution to make decisions about laws in the US. They ALWAYS use the original English text as the baseline and a translation would be invalid in the American Judicial and Congressional settings.

It is similar in the Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish world and has been that way throughout all Jewish history going from Mosheh Rabbeinu to the present day. If this had not been the case the modern state of Israel would not have Hebrew as the national and legal language.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't know what this is a reference to, so could you clarify?

BTW, this is my last post for today, but I'll be back sometime tomorrow. Take care.

It was a reference to something I wrote. It could be that he thought you wrote it but I am only guessing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But was it Moses who spoke of being 'blotted out' of the book of life.

Just FYI. The Hebrew text of the Torah makes no statement about the non-Jewish world being blotted out of any book for not being Jewish and definately not for not reading Hebrew. The Hebrew Torah also never claims that non-Jewish peoples or nations must become Jewish to be good people. See, a win win situation for all.

 

[PruePhillip]

Just FYI. The Hebrew text of the Torah makes no statement about the non-Jewish world being blotted out of any book for not being Jewish and definately not for not reading Hebrew. The Hebrew Torah also never claims that non-Jewish peoples or nations must become Jewish to be good people. See, a win win situation for all.

No, Moses said that G-d could blot HIM out of the book of life.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No, Moses said that G-d could blot HIM out of the book of life.

Thus, what I wrote is true. I.e. The Hebrew text of the Torah makes no statement about the non-Jewish world being blotted out of any book for not being Jewish and definately not for not reading Hebrew. The Hebrew Torah also never claims that non-Jewish peoples or nations must become Jewish to be good people. See, a win win situation for all.

Further, I.E. according to Torath Mosheh the non-Jewish are fine not being Jewish and the non-Jewish nations have value w/o them ever being Jewish and w/o them ever directing their culture like Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews do.

Clear?

 

[PruePhillip]

Thus, what I wrote is true. I.e. The Hebrew text of the Torah makes no statement about the non-Jewish world being blotted out of any book for not being Jewish and definately not for not reading Hebrew. The Hebrew Torah also never claims that non-Jewish peoples or nations must become Jewish to be good people. See, a win win situation for all.

Further, I.E. according to Torath Mosheh the non-Jewish are fine not being Jewish and the non-Jewish nations have value w/o them ever being Jewish and w/o them ever directing their culture like Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews do.

Clear?

Not really. I just commented on something Moses said
New International Version
Exodus 32:32
"But now, please forgive their sin--but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Not really. I just commented on something Moses said

Okay. Fine comment.

We at least agree then that the non-Jewish nations do not need to become Jewish and learn Hebrew, right?

 

[metis]

I asked what the rabbi you mentioned thought of your decision.

Obviously he was not pleased but he did understand after I explained why I made that decision. He then tried to talk me into keeping both affiliations but I told him that I just can't do that. However, I have helped out there with helping take care of the homeless one week out of the year, plus I have joined in for some sessions with the Lunch & Learn program.

What was the rabbi's name at the time you were talking about?

I won't divulge that, and I'm again actually surprised you asked. What's your point in asking?

Listen, if you don't believe me, just say so and we can then terminate this. As it is, your seeking of some of my more personal information bothers me, especially when it involves 3rd parties at the personal level.

What also bothers me is that you did not tell the truth when it comes to the issue of the diversity of beliefs within Judaism, then you came back and deflected from that into all sorts of more personal requests for information that you expect me to hand over to you.

To put it another way, your branch ain't the only game in town. Therefore, saying anything that starts out with "We Jews..." is almost doomed from the start to misrepresent the reality of not only Jewish diversity but also the diversity found within Judaism as well.

 

[metis]

Yes here is the clarification.

You said: Concerning Jewish scholars who have analysed the New Testament extensively. That happened more than 1,500 years ago.

So I asked: Please quote me this Jewish scholar who did that 1,500 years ago.

So please do name this Jewish scholar and show what his scholarship on the NT was.

I don't believe I was the one who posted that, so please check back and let me know if there's something I forgot. Hey, at 75 years of age, I got forgetting down to a science.