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Featured There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ehav4Ever, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    In reality there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. As far as Jews/Torath Mosheh/Judaism are concerned Christians can beleive whatever they want, how they want, etc. Most Torah based Jews are not trying to convince Christians to change their religion, adjust their religion, or even to accept Jewish texts (including how they are understood by Jews). Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism, has existed and can exist, in a vacuum where Christianity is not present or never existed. That being the case, in a place where Christians have no interest in missionizing then Jews have no concern with Christian theology.

    According to most Jews, in reality, Christian theology is not a topic that really involves Jews since we are not in competition with any of the religions of the world. Further, since there is no Jewish requirement to convert or convince people to be Jewish or accept Jewish infomation thus we have no real stake in the vs. kinds of debates. When Jews get involved in topics like this it is often when mis-information is presented by those not Jewish about Jews, Jewish views, Jewish history, and Jewish texts (IN HEBREW) are being presented (otherwise most Jews wouldn't care) or when Christian missionaries are targeting Jews to try to convert Jews to Christianity.

    Even the terminology used in "English" in this type of back and forth religious debate is not a Jews vs. Christian matter because if it were to take place in Hebrew you could end the discussion in about 10 minutes.

    For example, if people were to quote, in Hebrew, what is actually written in the Tanakh w/o translation there would be no more debate. It would be 100% clear what the Jewish text (The Hebrew Tanakh) really says and what it does not say. I.e. the tricks are played with the topic by way of translation into Greek or English.

    Further, Torah based Jews do not consider the New Testament to be historically accurate in various places, we consider the NT of unreliable authorship from start to finish, and we also view the NT's theological content to be foreign to Torath Mosheh. YET, as far as Torah based Jews are concerned this is not something that we must challenge Christians on. I.e. if Christians accept it then it is not our place to get involved.

    Lastly, the "English word" messiah, along with a number of other "English" words used in conversations like this, means one thing to Christians and it means something completely different to Jews. For example:

    • Messiah: Christian definition = Jesus, dying for sins, sometimes god/sometimes not, personal salvation. (Definitions based on Greek NT and the Church Fathers).
    • messiah: Jewish definition = not the correct term, but only used due to presence in English speaking countries. Real word (משיח) meaning someone anointed with oil to do a particular job. Can include Kohanim and also Kings of the Jewish Torah based nation. One particular individual will be a future human king in the land of Israel from the tribe of Yehudah. Said individual will be a paternal descendant of David through Shlomo ben Dawith which will be proven before a Jewish Mosaic court in the land of Israel. This Davidic king will lead by example and teach Torah and Halakha to the Jewish nation - as it is taught in the Mishnah with a standing Mosaic court, Temple in Jerusalem, Kohanim and Levyim working in the Temple, and all Israeli tribes with returned land rights. Said future Davidic king will lead the return of Torah based Israeli/Jewish nation which will facilitate a return of Torah based institutions throughout the land of Israel and a return of descendants of all Jewish tribes to the land of Israel. This future Davidic king will have children, in his lifetime, and one of his sons, and grandsons, will be kings after he passes away. (Definitions based on Hebrew Tanakh/Aramaic Tanakh/transmission of information passed on from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) through the prophets of Israel and also the Torah based leaders of the Jewish people.)
    Thus, there is no Judaism vs. Christianity. You can take the vs. out and simply title such a thread "Christianity: [fill in the blank]" and you can do a seperate thread titled, "Judaism: The Future Davidic King" where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used w/o translation and basically be done with the whole thing quick and fast.
     
    #1 Ehav4Ever, Feb 9, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  2. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    You make a good point that much of the discussion about Christianity and Judaism puts them at odds, when in reality they are often talking past each other with completely different understanding of certain concepts and terms.

    However, it does strike me that if you're right about the Hebrew Bible being so allegedly clear, why do all Jews not agree with each other about how to understand or apply it? And this is not only the case now, it has been the case for millenia. The claim very much reminds me of Christians who claim that if other Christians "just read the Bible" they'd come to agree with them. It just doesn't work out that way in practice.
     
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  3. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Greetings. I am so glad you asked that question. The only requirement we Torah based Jews have to 100% agree on is are things that are halakha. Hashem gave us various levels of freedom in how we perform some mitzvoth from the Torah and less in others that require a nationality unity.

    For example, all Torath Mosheh Jews (which includes Orthodox Jews) agree that Jewish men are to wear tefillin and tzitzith and we agree on the basic structure of both. There are slighly different styles on some elements of the production fo them. Yet, if you take them and compare them across the ancient Jewish world for more than 2,400 years you would know what you are looking at and you will see that they all came from a common source.

    Things like Agada/legends we are not required to agree on. There are also local traditions called minhagim which are (local) and are not required for Jews outside of a that local. They developed after the exiles and were already a part of the sytem sanctioned in the Torah.

    In terms of movements that started within the last 300 years, mostly from Europe, you simply have to ask:
    1. Is this concept found in Middle Eastern, African, and Asian Jewish communities?
    2. If not found in those other locations how old is it and why is it not found in Middle Eastern, African, and Asian Jewish communities?
    If one finds that something is not ancient and authoratative in Jewish communities, bring up the question if it is authentic, one simply has to investigate the source of such. Jewish texts work on a chain of transmission system where one can trace things back for several thousand years, often in the language it was originally spoken or written in. I have done a number of videos on this topic. I will post them here in a bit.

    Lastly, the Torah was/is meant for Jews to correctly perform in the land of Israel under the conditions of a Torah based kingdom, a Mosaic court system, the Temple, and the division of Israeli land by tribal affiliation. When that is restored you will see a dramatic change in how Jews interact with each other.
     
    #3 Ehav4Ever, Feb 9, 2021
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  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Excellent thread.
    I totally agree with you:).
     
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  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    That's pretty much what I was going to say. There's no debate here.
     
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  6. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    This is actually different than that. This is more like, "If what you are saying is true the prove it from a Hebrew text w/o translation."

    In several other threads I offered to start a Zoom where interested Christians could prove to me why I should accept Jesus. YET, the catch was they had to prove it using only the Hebrew Tanakh, in Hebrew, and w/o the use of translations. Several who I made this offer to outright refused to take me up on it.

    I live here in Israel and about a year ago some JW's came by and they spoke fluent Hebrew and when we put to this to the test what they were saying didn't hold up. That was with one place in the NT (funny enough Hebrews). When we went to the Hebrew Tanakh, and again we were speaking only in Hebrew, what they were saying didn't hold up. YET, I respected the fact that they were willing to take the time to learn Hebrew to try and present what they wanted to present.

    As a Torath Mosheh Jew, I am REQUIRED, to accept the truth from any source that can be proven to be the truth so one would think that somone would jump at the chance and accept such simple and straight forward terms. That is IF the claim that Jesus is found in the Hebrew Tanakh were true.
     
  7. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Just an additional note. Sometimes the difference between Jews is not how to apply something but instead what is the source of how to apply it? For example, after 2 exiles a question may come up of where do we get the source for how to make a knot on tzitzith. Do we get it from a reference in one part of the Hebrew Torah vs. another? All sides agree that we get it from the Torah but they may disagree in what exact verse we get the practice of a detail of how we do it. Another one may be, did it come from a Mosaic court from 2,500 years ago or from a Mosiac court from a Mosaic court from 2,400 years ago?

    Further, ask any Torath Mosheh or Orthodox Jew what the below is a picture of and everyone will know. Go through each type and count the number of strings and everyone will give the same answer. Yet, ask what animal is used to produce the blue and what is the process for verification and you will get a few possibilities. Why? Because when Jews were exiled after the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions those generations stopped making the blue dye. At some point only one family maintained the process and when they had to stop making it everyone else had to stop. YET, everyone agrees that the animal was aquatic and everyone agrees on what number of strings can be blue. Further, going through Jewish sources there are only two types of productions in modern times that compete for the title of being the correct animal and the correct process. Until a Mosaic court is refromed in the land of Israel to rule on it we Jews have a method of how to continue to do what is basline required from the Torah on this and other topics.

    upload_2021-2-9_19-15-22.png
     
  8. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I think that is not true. By what the NT says, Messiah means the King of Jews (anointed one).
     
  9. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    Do all Jews agree on which mitzvoth there is less freedom in regard to, and how much freedom there is or isn't?

    If not, then it seems that just reading the Hebrew Bible is not sufficient to assure that all of you will agree.

    But all Jews are not Orthodox...so again, it seems clear that just reading the Hebrew text doesn't clear up all disagreement, even about things considered by some Jewish groups to be essential or required.

    Do all Jews agree with you that those criteria are the ones that are relevant, and do they agree with the conclusions you've come to based on those criteria? If not, again, just reading the Bible in Hebrew has not seemed to clear up the conflicts.
     
  10. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    This is actually exactly what Christians say when they demand that doctrines must be taken directly from the original text of the Bible, either in Hebrew or Greek.
     
  11. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    So, which Hebrew text do the majority of Christians read from for themselves? What percantage of Christians, for example, on this forum read and understand Hebrew? If I post some text in Hebrew, which someone can't use google translate on, how many Christians can read them?
     
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  12. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    I'm not arguing that most Christians read Hebrew. I'm quite sure they don't. I'm confident some do, especially those in Biblical academia. I am more referring to the mentality of, "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" common among Christian fundamentalists. In whichever language, the logic is analogous. And in whichever language, that method has not produced theological unity among adherents.
     
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  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    It would be good if all Christians learned Hebrew and if one of the first things taught to converts was that language.

    Oh, you can believe what you like. The Christians are hot competition for making the world a better place. You can't count the Christians out, and you can't guarantee the Jews will keep trying. You might give up, someday. You might quit, throw in the towel, leaving the Christians to pick up the slack.
     
  14. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Torah Mosheh and Orthodox Jews agree on what is "halachically binding."

    I covered that in my previous comment. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism are the most ancient Torah based communities which are found in all Jewish locals world wide. Think of it like this. All modern Jews today descend from Jews who prior to about 500 years ago were Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews.

    If you take any Jewish movement and inquire of how far back in Jewish history you find them and how widespread they are have been "historically" around the Jewish world (Middle East, Africa, Europe, and Asia) you will know what type of Jews existed in ancient times.

    Yes. Side note. Not the "bible" in Hebrew, the Tanakh in Hebrew. Bible means something different for Jews than it does for the rest of the world. Sometimes Jews use that term knowing that it doesn't mean the same thing for us.

    Take the following statement "Torath Mosheh (תורת משה) is - All ancient, authoritative, and authentic historical texts, concepts, judicial rulings, practice, and traditions that trace directly back to the singularity of the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, as it was transmitted from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram and all of Am Yisrael, and has been preserved by their descendants who are from the most ancient communities of Mizrahi, Teimani, Sepahrdic, Maghrebi, and Ashkanazi Jews."and ask a Jew if they hold by it, then ask if someone in their family prior to about 300 years held by it and see what they say.
     
  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    This is an important admission. "Some Christians in academia except most Christians do not" vs. "An entire country of non-Christian Jews academic, non-academic, religious, not religious, men, women, children, etc." know and understand Hebrew - this is a powerful statement. It means that when it comes to reading and understanding a Hebrew text (ancient and modern) there are a larger number of Jews, from various segments of society, who are better equiped. This is not a criticism of Christians since it is not their culture for the average Christian in any given part of the world to know, read, and understand Hebrew.

    I actually never made the statement that, "the Bible says it, I beleive it, that settles it." My statement was "If what you are saying is true the prove it from a Hebrew text w/o translation." Meaning that Christian theology is claimed to be in the Hebrew Tanakh yet if that were true there should be more Christians who are able to show it in Hebrew rather than defaulting to translations.

    You say the same for any text. For example, someone claims that the original tanscript of Romeo and Juliet the exact statement of, "Hey there very pretty lady come down here and let us ride in my BMW to Times Square," would have to pull out the original text to prove that the exact statement shows up there. Pulling out a translation would not cut it in such a situation. See how they are not the same?
     
    #15 Ehav4Ever, Feb 9, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  16. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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    I find it quite ridiculous that something has to be the opinion of all Jews to be valid.
    That sets an insane requirement which no group of people ever can meet.

    It is essentially irrelevant how for example Reform Jews feel about Jewish law as the movement was specifically created to be outside of Jewish law.
     
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  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Not all Jews are on the same page on almost anything one can think of. [ya know: 2 Jews = 3 opinions on most anything] nor are all Christians on the same page [thousands of denominations] Thus, I don't find differences of opinion to be a problem but just what is.

    IMO, it's better to have many opinions around versus just a few.
     
  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of people (non-Christian and non-Jewish) who are making the world a better place. There are Athiest who are making the world a better place, there are Animists who are making the world a better place, there are Wiccans who are making the world a better place, there are Buddhists who are making the world a good place, etc. According to Torath Mosheh no nation or earth has a patent on that one.

    If that is the standard that is used by Christianity then Judaism and Christainity are definately not on the same page. It is clear in Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism that the world is filled with non-Jewish people doing good things and they don't have to be Jewish to do good things. In fact, [DRUM ROLL] Torath Mosheh teaches that a person can do good in the world and never beleive that Hashem is the source of creation.

    Consider that Christians should easily be happy with their lives and beleifs w/o even considering that Jews exist. We are counting you out or in. We simply have no need to count at all. The only time we really have to even think about Christianity or even Jesus is when someone is either a) trying to misinform people about what we Jews are about or b) when someone is trying to convert a Jew to Christianity. If neither of these situations existed there would be a lot more Jews in the world who would not think about Christianity at all. I.e. it wouldn't be on our radar and it doesn't have to be.
     
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  19. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    But those are not the only Jews.

    Do all Jews (not merely Orthodox or Torath Mosheh Jews) agree with you that that's relevant? If they don't, then clearly just reading the Hebrew text of the Tanakh has not ensured agreement. This is my point.

    Incidentally, where does the Tanakh say that an understanding of the Tanakh is only legitimate if it is more than 300 years old?

    Really? Seems like you are not counting folks like Conservstive or Reform Jews as "real" Jews.

    Again, this is extremely similar to the dynamic within Christianity.

    The fact that all Jews are not part of your version of Judaism informs me they do not all agree with the belief you've cited. Which indicates that your solution of just reading the Hebrew Tanakh is not sufficient to create clarity or unity in doctrine or practice.
     
  20. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem is that many Christians don't understand what it means for Jews to be on the same page. It means something different for us.

    BTW: the two Jews three opinions thing is an internal Jewish joke that got out. ;) There are a lot of things where we are allowed to have 3 opinions on - especially when we are in exile like we still are right now. Practical halakha when there is a Mosaic court in the land of Israel s not one of them. Thus, all Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews agree on things that were rulings from a Mosaic court that is standing in the land of Israel.
     
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