The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[RabbiO]

God gave Moses the true Law of God. But later, the scribes changed it into lies, as teaches us Jeremiah 8, 7-8:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

How long has it been since I first brought to your attention that quoting Jeremiah without understanding context is an error? I know - six years. During all that time how often have you expressed an interest in understanding the context? I know - I can count the number with 0 fingers.

I suppose some might draw comfort in an ever changing world that you remain solid and unwavering in your arrogance and your ignorance. Some, however, probably feel that in regard to Jeremiah - “...behold, the false pen of Porque77 has made it into a lie.”

 

[dfnj]

Dear friends, I have studied the writings of the prophets, and I found several quotes that make me think what happened to God's Law.


The writings of the prophets tell us that God's law was changed.


The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the God's Law

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us: The God's law was changed by the scribes. The Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

The word was "gourd" not "lord" !!! Gourd being a euphemism for our brains. In other words what Jesus was really saying was "think for yourself and stop following me".

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, the Law and the commandments spoken by the LORD are not all those that are written in the Old Testament, because the scribes changed the God's Law into lies, as teaches us Jeremiah 8, 7-8. And there are many precepts of men in the Old Testament.

I'm simply saying that the Torah has not changed since Babylon, where it was compiled. Jesus had the same Torah that you have in your own Bible. If you throw out the Torah that you have today, then you have to throw out Jesus too, who said, "not a single brush stroke will fall away..."

 

[Porque77]

No, the Law and the commandments spoken by the LORD are not all those that are written in the Old Testament, because the scribes changed the God's Law into lies, as teaches us Jeremiah 8, 7-8. And there are many precepts of men in the Old Testament.

The Law that God had really given to Moses is not the Old Testament mandates that ordered men sacrificies, slavery and to harm and kill people.

The Law that God had really given to Moses is what Jesus taught us when He preached the Gospel, because He Himself said that the Law and the prophets is this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

This is Law that JesusChrist came not to abolished and the true God's Law

And the commandments of the LORD are not all those that are written in the Old Testament, but those that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel, because Jesus taught that the commandments are these:

"if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19:16-22

I'm simply saying that the Torah has not changed since Babylon, where it was compiled. Jesus had the same Torah that you have in your own Bible. If you throw out the Torah that you have today, then you have to throw out Jesus too, who said, "not a single brush stroke will fall away..."

The Law that was really given by God to Moses is not all the commands that are written in the Old Testament, but the Law that Jesus taught when he preached the Gospel, because Jesus said that the Law and the prophets is this:.

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Law that was really given by God to Moses is not all the commands that are written in the Old Testament, but the Law that Jesus taught when he preached the Gospel, because Jesus said that the Law and the prophets is this:.

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

This is not an original statement. 30 years before Jesus, Hillel made the same statement: "What is hateful to you do not do to others. This is the whole Torah. God now and study."

What are you supposed to study? The same thing Jesus referred to when he said, "Not a single brushstroke will fall away from the Law until heaven and earth pass away." Matthew 5:18 So don't think that the detail is unimportant just because we have a great summation.

 

[Porque77]

The Law that was really given by God to Moses is not all the commands that are written in the Old Testament, but the Law that Jesus taught when he preached the Gospel, because Jesus said that the Law and the prophets is this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

This is not an original statement. 30 years before Jesus, Hillel made the same statement: "What is hateful to you do not do to others. This is the whole Torah. God now and study."

That was written by Tobias long before Hillel

"What you don't want for yourself, don't do it to anyone." (Tob 4:15)

What are you supposed to study? The same thing Jesus referred to when he said, "Not a single brushstroke will fall away from the Law until heaven and earth pass away." Matthew 5:18 So don't think that the detail is unimportant just because we have a great summation.

The Law that Jesus came not to abolish is the Law of the Gospel

The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:31-48, Matthew 12:1-8, John 5:8-11, John 5:16-18, John 8:3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel).

The Gospel says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" (Matthew5:17-20).

In these words are based many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel's words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5:31-48 and other parts of the Gospel.

The words of Jesus Christ in this famous verse (Matthew 5:17), which tells us that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, refers to the true Law of God, which is the Law that Jesus Christ himself taught us in the Gospel. Jesus Christ teaches that the law and the prophets that He did not come to abolish is the following:

"Allthings whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12).

Therefore, this is the law that God gave to Israel because Jesus Christ himself says that "this is the law and the prophets". This is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ("Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets"). And of this law did pass "not one jot not one tittle", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel and that is the true Law that God gave to Moses.

Now I also remember the Law of Jesus Christ expressed in commandments, as the Gospel teaches:

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

And this law and these commandments are in effect for all peoples.

However, no one is under the laws of the Old Testament that were abolished by Jesus Christ, because those laws were not true Law of God. We are all under the Law and the commandments of Christ, which are the only true Law of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel

Jesus never once said anything about any so-called "Law of the gospel." This is something you have made up out of whole cloth. The only Law Jesus knew was Law all Jews knew.

 

[Porque77]

Jesus never once said anything about any so-called "Law of the gospel." This is something you have made up out of whole cloth. The only Law Jesus knew was Law all Jews knew.

When I say "the Law of the Gospel", I refer the Law that Jesus Christ taught us when He preached the Gospel

I don't know if you did understud this:

The Law that Jesus came not to abolish is the Law of the Gospel

The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:31-48, Matthew 12:1-8, John 5:8-11, John 5:16-18, John 8:3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel).

The Gospel says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" (Matthew5:17-20).

In these words are based many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel's words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5:31-48 and other parts of the Gospel.

The words of Jesus Christ in this famous verse (Matthew 5:17), which tells us that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, refers to the true Law of God, which is the Law that Jesus Christ himself taught us in the Gospel. Jesus Christ teaches that the law and the prophets that He did not come to abolish is the following:

"Allthings whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12).

Therefore, this is the law that God gave to Israel because Jesus Christ himself says that "this is the law and the prophets". This is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ("Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets"). And of this law did pass "not one jot not one tittle", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel and that is the true Law that God gave to Moses.

Now I also remember the Law of Jesus Christ expressed in commandments, as the Gospel teaches:

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

And this law and these commandments are in effect for all peoples.

However, no one is under the laws of the Old Testament that were abolished by Jesus Christ, because those laws were not true Law of God. We are all under the Law and the commandments of Christ, which are the only true Law of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When I say "the Law of the Gospel", I refer the Law that Jesus Christ taught us when He preached the Gospel

The Law that Jesus taught in the Gospel was the Torah, IMO as interpreted by the school of Hillel (the one exception being the teaching on divorce). There were areas of Halakhah not yet solidified, and he did banter with the Rabbis about appropriate interpretation, as is Jewish custom. But it is obvious to those who know Judaism that he was an observant Jew. He did not set about to establish a new religion. That was Paul's deal.

 

[Porque77]

When I say "the Law of the Gospel", I refer the Law that Jesus Christ taught us when He preached the Gospel

I don't know if you did understud this: ......

The Law that Jesus taught in the Gospel was the Torah.......

Jesus Christ remembered and commanded to keep the commandments that God had really given Israel, which are the commandments that Jesus Christ taught when He preached the Gospel, and these are not all that are written in the Old Testament, but these:

"...if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus Christ remembered and commanded to keep the commandments that God had really given Israel, which are the commandments that Jesus Christ taught when He preached the Gospel, and these are not all that are written in the Old Testament, but these:

"...if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

Jesus did not teach laws that were not in the Torah or oral Torah. He was a Jew. He practiced Judaism.

 

[metis]

Jesus did not teach laws that were not in the Torah or oral Torah. He was a Jew. He practiced Judaism.

But he did take an extremely liberal view that went well beyond even the school of Hillel vis-a-vis the Law.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But he did take an extremely liberal view that went well beyond even the school of Hillel vis-a-vis the Law.

You would have a different take on this if you knew your Jewish history better -- and I'm not blaming you for not knowing. I mean, not being a Jew, why would you want to know Jewish history? Basically, Jesus' teachings was not more liberal then bet Hillel for the most part. There are only a couple of items where he is more liberal, and there is one where he takes the more strict position of bet Shammai (divorce). But by and large, he is a by the book school of Hillel in terms of oral Torah and interpretation of the Torah.

There was nothing revolutionary about Jesus. He merely argued with other Pharisees about the application of Torah, which was quite normal -- you'll find tons of these debates preserved in the Talmud.

 

[metis]

You would have a different take on this if you knew your Jewish history better -- and I'm not blaming you for not knowing. I mean, not being a Jew, why would you want to know Jewish history?

Well, you certainly don't know much about my background and, frankly, I prefer to just leave it that way with you after the condescending remark above.

Basically, Jesus' teachings was not more liberal then bet Hillel for the most part. There are only a couple of items where he is more liberal, and there is one where he takes the more strict position of bet Shammai (divorce). But by and large, he is a by the book school of Hillel in terms of oral Torah and interpretation of the Torah.

Well:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”


Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”

Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”


I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”


Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”


Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”


Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”

8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”

10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”


Does this sound like Hillel to you?

The above is what the Apostles and their appointees came to believe about Jesus, thus they must have gotten it from somewhere.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, you certainly don't know much about my background and, frankly, I prefer to just leave it that way with you after the condescending remark above.

Well:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”


Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”

Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”


I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”


Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”


Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”


Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”

8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”

10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”


Does this sound like Hillel to you?

The above is what the Apostles and their appointees came to believe about Jesus, thus they must have gotten it from somewhere.

1. You are quoting Jesus out of context (assuming that your gospels accurately record him, which is quite doubtful).

2. His ruling on divorce was bet Shammai, MORE strict than Hillel, not less.

3. You are quoting a lot of stuff that Paul and others said, which aren't the words of Jesus at all. Such quotes have no place in the discussion.

4. You are leaving out the quotes of Jesus that support the following of Torah by Jews. You have a completely unbalance view as a result.

 

[RabbiO]

You would have a different take on this if you knew your Jewish history better -- and I'm not blaming you for not knowing. I mean, not being a Jew, why would you want to know Jewish history?

If you knew @metis for as long as I have, if you knew his history as I do, some of which is discernible by going back to some of his posts from earlier times, you would understand how unintentionally wrong headed your remarks are.

 

[metis]

1. You are quoting Jesus out of context (assuming that your gospels accurately record him, which is quite doubtful).

2. His ruling on divorce was bet Shammai, MORE strict than Hillel, not less.

3. You are quoting a lot of stuff that Paul and others said, which aren't the words of Jesus at all. Such quotes have no place in the discussion.

4. You are leaving out the quotes of Jesus that support the following of Torah by Jews. You have a completely unbalance view as a result.

For some reason I've lost interest.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@metis

Apparently I have misjudged you. I apologize, and will be more open to you in the future.

 

[metis]

@metis

Apparently I have misjudged you. I apologize, and will be more open to you in the future.

First of all, I accept your apology and, secondly, I respect a person even more when they are wiling to admit they may be wrong, especially since most don't seem to be willing to do that.

Take care and let's start with a clean slate, and also I want to thank @RabbiO for interjecting to make this possible. He and I go back a looong way, and he's "top-shelf" as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Harel13]

No, the Law and the commandments spoken by the LORD are not all those that are written in the Old Testament, because the scribes changed the God's Law into lies, as teaches us Jeremiah 8, 7-8.

We've all heard of them. Those Scribes, the ones who write the Books of the Law. They sit with the Pharisees in Moses' seat. And they're evil (like the Pharisees, amirite?)! They falsify G-d's Law and gave birth to the present day Jewish people! But do we know who they really are?

I don't think you do.

Let's talk about the background to this chapter.
The Jewish people have been sinning to G-d. They've been sinning and sinning and now the Babylonians are coming. And G-d says through Jeremiah how He sent all these prophets warning them to return to G-d, but nobody's listening. And now the Babylonians are coming and G-d is telling the nation that He isn't going to protect them, they're not going to make it through this. Of course, He offers them the chance to repent before it happens, but if they don't, they're going to be destroyed.

So everyone knows the Babylonians are coming. They don't need Jeremiah to tell them that of course, the Babylonians are en marche. The thing is - and Jeremiah just goes on and on about this - people aren't really worried about this, because there's another group here that's saying that G-d will save them from the Babylonians. In 5:11-13, we are first introduced to this group, these false prophets who claim that G-d will save them. And the people are lapping it up. Verse 31 says, "and the prophets, prophecy falsely...and My nation loves it". The nation isn't worried about the Babylonians because there's this group going around telling everyone that it's all going to be ok. "...from prophet to priest, everyone does falsity and they heal the break of my nation offhandedly, saying, 'Peace! Peace!' but there is no peace. (6:13)."

What is happening is, this group is telling everyone that everything will be ok, they have the Temple, they can offer sacrifices, so they'll just bring sacrifices and G-d will forgive them. Nothing to worry about.

"Do not trust for yourselves in the lying prophets who say, "The Sanctuary of G-d! The Sanctuary of G-d! The Sanctuary of G-d these are! (7:4)"
"...add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat [their] flesh. Because I did not speak to your fathers and I did not command them...about burnt offerings and sacrifices. But the thing I commanded them was to listen to My Voice..." (v. 21-23)
G-d explains - we can't expect the sacrifices in the Temple to cleanse us of sin, while we are still sinning.

As Jeremiah says, "Behold you are trusting for yourselves, in lying words that will not help (7:8)"

And now we come to chapter 8:5-11:

"...Why is the nation backsliding?... How can they say, 'We are wise and the Law of G-d is with us'? However they have made it falsehood! A lying pen [are the] scribes!... The 'wise' shall be ashamed, they shall be dismayed and trapped. Behold they have rejected the word of G-d and what wisdom is with them?... because from prophet to priest everyone does falsity and they heal the break of my nation offhandedly, saying, 'Peace! Peace!' but there is no peace."

Hopefully, at this point you can see the the people Jeremiah is talking to are not the people whose job it is to copy Torah scrolls, but to the people who are claiming that the nation doesn't need to worry about the impending Babylonian invasion. To the people who are claiming that all they need to do is bring sacrifices in the Temple and that will save them from the Babylonians.

Jeremiah is not complaining that the Jewish copyists have altered the Torah. He is chastising these false prophets for claiming in the Name of G-d that all they need to do is offer sacrifices to G-d. To that Jeremiah responds, 'No! The sin-offerings won't help so long as you continue to commit the sins that you're bringing them for. Those who say otherwise are lying and G-d will not save you if you don't stop.'

I hope that has been enlightening to those who have mistakenly assumed Jeremiah 8:8 meant something else.

Voila, problem solved.