The irony in the Baha'i faith

[Dawnofhope]

This is absurd. I do not know exactly where she got that idea, but I can think of some possibilities.

I agree that its absurd. This forum does provide an opportunity where those who are interested can ask questions of adherents of different religions. Many won’t take than opportunity and rely instead on hearsay.

 

[Trailblazer]

One criticism I’ve heard about the Baha’i Faith is that we exaggerate our numbers and that the Baha’i Faith is actually in decline rather than growing. It certainly is difficult to obtain objective data about numbers that would identify with a relatively small worldwide community and in many respects numbers are of limited value. The most important thing is the extent to which Bahá’u’lláh’s revelation transforms hearts and enables them to become better people.

I do recall mentioning to a member of this forum that the Baha’i Faith in my country (New Zealand) was growing and I was told he didn’t believe me. In New Zealand we have a census conducted every 5 years where religious affiliation is asked. This does provide a reasonably reliable measure of religious affiliation without any agendas. Interestingly the numbers of Baha’is grew about 11% from 2634 recorded in the 2013 census to 2925 in 2018.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

Those percentages are rather interesting. You have about half the number of Christians we have in the United States but many more people than the U.S. who have no religious affiliation. It is no wonder your Baha'i growth rate is probably higher than we have here in the U.S.... we are bucking a headwind with all the Christians here.

Not too long ago I found some statistics on how many people in the U.S. are still waiting for Jesus to return and it was about 60%. It is no wonder the American Baha'is are not doing a lot of teaching. Baha'u'llah is not the same man Jesus, and most Christians are not going to believe that the Christ Spirit returned in another man... It is just not something most people can understand.

Well, it is almost 2 am here so I am calling it a day.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree that its absurd. This forum does provide an opportunity where those who are interested can ask questions of adherents of different religions. Many won’t take than opportunity and rely instead on hearsay.

Well, at least the opportunity is here. This is the only religious forum I know of that even considers the Baha'i Faith an Abrahamic religion. On another religious forum I post on we are grouped under "new" religions and you have to hunt and peck before you can even find that section.

The way I look at it, if people are willing to believe whatever negativity they hear and not hear the other side then they are not sincerely seeking the truth. But there will always be a few people who are.

 

[oldbadger]

I agree that its absurd. This forum does provide an opportunity where those who are interested can ask questions of adherents of different religions. Many won’t take than opportunity and rely instead on hearsay.

I think that you would like all the members to accept your version of Baha'i history and values. But that would be just hearsay, wouldn't it?
Clearly the Baha'i messages should be treated with care, imo.

 

[Jim]

It is indeed the role of the Baha’i administration to consider the best course of action to be taken in instances of enrolled Baha’is who consistently promote teachings that contradict the fundamental Teachings of the Baha’i Faith though the internet. In rare instances that could result in the removal of membership after the individual concerned have been counselled but with no change in behaviour or attitude.

I don’t think that any of that is true. I don’t that there is any law or policy against Baha’is promoting views contrary to any fundamental teachings of the Faith, and I don’t think that there has ever been any administrative action against any member for that reason alone.

 

[CG Didymus]

The irony in the Baha'i faith is that they, despite their claim to do otherwise, facilitate religious animosities or at least irritation between religious groups

I think you already know my answer to that: pushing them away.

One criticism I’ve heard about the Baha’i Faith

So what about this criticism? How do Baha'is fix that? Do you agree with Jim and I that many Baha'is are pushing people from the other religions away?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don’t think that any of that is true. I don’t that there is any law or policy against Baha’is promoting views contrary to any fundamental teachings of the Faith, and I don’t think that there has ever been any administrative action against any member for that reason alone.

That is that is incorrect Jim

They have many roles and one of those is protection at the grassroots level, that can be refereed to National and if needed Universal Levels.

"It is incumbent upon them to be vigilant and cautious, discreet and watchful, and protect at all times the Temple of the Cause from the dart of the mischief-maker and the onslaught of the enemy."

"He feels that you should turn to your Local Assembly, in the strictest confidence, and seek their aid and advice. These bodies have the sacred obligation to help, advise, protect, and guide the believers in every way within their power when appealed to—indeed they were established just for the purpose of keeping order and unity and obedience to the law of God amongst the believers."

Thus if an issue is raised by a believer, then the LSA is obligated to discuss the issue and offer advice. There are many passages such as this for guidance.

It is important to note this aspect of decision making though;

"Let us also bear in mind that the keynote of the Cause of God is not dictatorial authority, but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation. Nothing short of the spirit of a true Bahá’í can hope to reconcile the principles of mercy and justice, of freedom and submission, of the sanctity of the right of the individual and of self-surrender, of vigilance, discretion and prudence on the one hand and fellowship, candour and courage on the other.
The duties of those whom the friends have freely and conscientiously elected as their representatives are no less vital and binding than the obligations of those who have chosen them. Their function is not to dictate, but to consult, and consult not only among themselves, but as much as possible with the friends whom they represent. They must regard themselves in no other light but that of chosen instruments for a more efficient and dignified presentation of the Cause of God. They should never be led to suppose that they are the central ornaments of the body of the Cause, intrinsically superior to others in capacity or merit, and sole promoters of its teachings and principles. They should approach their task with extreme humility, and endeavour by their open-mindedness, their high sense of justice and duty, their candour, their modesty, their entire devotion to the welfare and interests of the friends, the Cause, and humanity, to win not only the confidence and the genuine support and respect of those whom they should serve, but also their esteem and real affection. They must at all times avoid the spirit of exclusiveness, the atmosphere of secrecy, free themselves from a domineering attitude, and banish all forms of prejudice and passion from their deliberations. They should, within the limits of wise discretion, take the friends into their confidence, acquaint them with their plans, share with them their problems and anxieties, and seek their advice and counsel...."

Much more - This Link is to a PDF or Word Doc- The Local Spiritual Assembly | Bahá’í Reference Library

Another - "..Regarding consultation: Any person can refer a matter to the Assembly for consultation whether the other party wishes to or not. In matters which affect the Cause the Assembly should, if it deems it necessary, intervene even if both sides don’t want it to, because the whole purpose of the Assemblies is to protect the Faith, the Communities and the individual Bahá’ís as well...."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what about this criticism? How do Baha'is fix that? Do you agree with Jim and I that many Baha'is are pushing people from the other religions away?

I see people are responsible for their own reactions in relation to what they hear about the faith from any individual. That is individual Investigation after all. No Baha'i is perfect, they are on a journey just like anybody else.

So in the end, it depends if and individual wishes to find the Truth for their own selves. Every Baha'i has walked that path and continue to do so.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion the Baha’i administration provides counselling to retrain members to believe everything the Baha’i Faith teaches. It doesn’t, but agree it would be quite cult like if it were true.

On the other hand it must be acknowledged, that if an issue is raised, there may be a time when the member is invited to consult.

I remember I used to have a Local Spiritual Assembly Handbook, it was published in Australia in 1996. Can not seem to find a copy online, but there is passages to reflect upon at this link - The Local Spiritual Assembly | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

So what about this criticism? How do Baha'is fix that? Do you agree with Jim and I that many Baha'is are pushing people from the other religions away?

From what I can see the Baha'is and their critics on this forum have amicable discussions for the most part. We have highs and lows, but there continues to be good will on both sides and no one is stating they are not goig to talk to the other party any more. So lines of communication remains open.

The Baha'is have certainly experienced a great deal of critcism for their religious beliefs and of a personal nature. The critics of the Baha'i Faith on the other hand will also claim the Baha'is have been unfair, unreasonable and have engaged in counter criticism. Further we have been deceptive and have been more interested in proselytizing than actually listening to what has been said. It has even been suggested the Baha'is are deluded. It is possible each side may minimise their own faults while exaggerating what they see as being 'the other side'.

I personally don't see the Baha'is going on the offensive and pulling atheism, agnosticism, deism, Hinduism or Christianity to pieces in response. The Baha'is appear willing and able to continue amicable discussions that in some cases have been going on for 3 years or more. There are limits of course.

For me the goal of any of these discussions is simply that we should agree to disagree and engage in civil discussion as we have been. If being an atheist, deist, agnostic, Hindu or Christian works best for an individual I certainly have no wish to change anyone's mind.

Do Baha'is say or do things that push people away. Undoubtedly we do as we are human. Inevitably we say and do things we shouldn't. How do we fix that? Continue to work on being better people. Of course it works both ways as communication is a two way street.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do Baha'is say or do things that push people away. Undoubtedly we do as we are human. Inevitably we say and do things we shouldn't. How do we fix that? Continue to work on being better people.

How about an Amen to that

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

On the other hand it must be acknowledged, that if an issue is raised, there may be a time when the member is invited to consult.

I remember I used to have a Local Spiritual Assembly Handbook, it was published in Australia in 1996. Can not seem to find a copy online, but there is passages to reflect upon at this link - The Local Spiritual Assembly | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

Those instances are generally in regards to behaviours rather than beliefs. For example, if someone is an active Baha'i and they are cohabiting with their unmarried partner or flagrant and public use of alcohol and drugs. We lovingly draw their attention to the Baha'i writings and encourage them to change their behaviour. When we meet with them we don't enforce a programme of total thought control and reprogramming until they accept all the Baha'i beliefs. That was suggested in a post by another here.

The irony in the Baha'i faith

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think that you would like all the members to accept your version of Baha'i history and values. But that would be just hearsay, wouldn't it?

Its neither hearsay, nor correct.

Clearly the Baha'i messages should be treated with care, imo.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Those instances are generally in regards to behaviours rather than beliefs. For example, if someone is an active Baha'i and they are cohabiting with their unmarried partner or flagrant and public use of alcohol and drugs. We lovingly draw their attention to the Baha'i writings and encourage them to change their behaviour. When we meet with them we don't enforce a programme of total thought control and reprogramming until they accept all the Baha'i beliefs. That was suggested in a post by another here.

The irony in the Baha'i faith

Agreed

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Its neither hearsay, nor correct.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Well, thank goodness for that.
I never did get an acknowledgment from you about my reply about people hiding behind pseudonyms.

I copy posts like that now to save from impossible searches later on. It's there, I think, in some Bahai minds on this forum, that those who push back against Bahai claims are not good people? It seems to me that when fair comments are made that Bahai will either not respond or, when unable to answer a point it falls back upon phrases such as :-
Hiding behind pseudonyms
Pharisee-like
Devil -like
Less likely to talk so, face to face.

I put it to you that such opinions are quite crank; Bahai needs to focus more closely on points that it cannot defend, cannot answer, rather than just auto-assume that all opponents are wicked people.

I do acknowledge that a few Bahais just answer questions straight, without the waffle, but Bahai reputation would increase no end if it could do that all the time, because at least it would earn more respect that way.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, thank goodness for that.
I never did get an acknowledgment from you about my reply about people hiding behind pseudonyms.

I copy posts like that now to save from impossible searches later on. It's there, I think, in some Bahai minds on this forum, that those who push back against Bahai claims are not good people? It seems to me that when fair comments are made that Bahai will either not respond or, when unable to answer a point it falls back upon phrases such as :-
Hiding behind pseudonyms
Pharisee-like
Devil -like
Less likely to talk so, face to face.

In my 3 years on this forum I have never heard any Baha'is describe their critics as Pharisee-like or Devil-like.

My comments about pseudonyms were about the nature of world wide internet discussion groups such as these compared to being in a community where there are face to face interactions. I explained this was not a critcism but just the very different nature of online communities compared to neighbourhood communities. I agree the use of pseudonyms is best for groups like these.

I put it to you that such opinions are quite crank; Bahai needs to focus more closely on points that it cannot defend, cannot answer, rather than just auto-assume that all opponents are wicked people.

That's not how I see it.

I do acknowledge that a few Bahais just answer questions straight, without the waffle, but Bahai reputation would increase no end if it could do that all the time, because at least it would earn more respect that way.

Sure.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Those percentages are rather interesting. You have about half the number of Christians we have in the United States but many more people than the U.S. who have no religious affiliation. It is no wonder your Baha'i growth rate is probably higher than we have here in the U.S.... we are bucking a headwind with all the Christians here.

Not too long ago I found some statistics on how many people in the U.S. are still waiting for Jesus to return and it was about 60%. It is no wonder the American Baha'is are not doing a lot of teaching. Baha'u'llah is not the same man Jesus, and most Christians are not going to believe that the Christ Spirit returned in another man... It is just not something most people can understand.

Well, it is almost 2 am here so I am calling it a day.

I did look at the census for the USA but there is no longer a category for religious affiliation. In NZ the percentage of our population identifying as Christian went from 48% to 37% whereas those identifying as having no religion increased from 42 to 49%. Although the number of Baha'is has increased overall our population overall has increased by about the same. Most of that increase however is due to immigration and 80% of Baha'is were born in New Zealand unlike Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists were the percentages of those born overseas is much higher.

One of the major factors in our growth as been the spiritual vitality and energy of our Pacific Island Community. There are also a few neighbourhoods of intensive growth.

Another consideration is our Baha'i popuation actually declined slightly from the 2001 census but it now seeing an increase again.

 

[Riders]

It is indeed the role of the Baha’i administration to consider the best course of action to be taken in instances of enrolled Baha’is who consistently promote teachings that contradict the fundamental Teachings of the Baha’i Faith though the internet. In rare instances that could result in the removal of membership after the individual concerned have been counselled but with no change in behaviour or attitude. @Jim identifies as being gay and an atheist. In addition he has other views that for some Baha’is might bring into question his loyalty to the Covenant. He has self-reported his internet activities and views to the Baha’i administration who have decided not to counsel Jim, nor make an issue of his membership. Based on my experience serving on Baha’i Assemblies and the institution of the counsellors as an assistant for protection the issues appear clear. The best course of action is no action. To the best of my knowledge Jim remains an enrolled member of the Baha’i Faith in good standing. I personally have no issues with any of

You say here you have an administration who counsels people who claim to gay in your organization, why counsel? You gonna pray the gay away? Sorry cult like to me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You say here you have an administration who counsels people who claim to gay in your organization, why counsel? You gonna pray the gay away? Sorry cult like to me.

Did you read and think about what I said? You response sounds as if you completely missed the point that was made.

You want to label a religion you have little knowledge of as a cult? OK. I'd want to get my facts straight first but go ahead.

 

[Riders]

Did you read and think about what I said? You response sounds as if you completely missed the point that was made.

You want to label a religion you have little knowledge of as a cult? OK. I'd want to get my facts straight first but go ahead.

If you do't believe trying to control someones sexual identity is not cult like that's your deal.