The irony in the Baha'i faith

[George-ananda]

Maybe the need for keeping members when the membership roles are falling is a reason to be less strict.

Yes, they tend to be more tolerant for that reason and look to some future time of full . I think the modern Baha'i 2.0

I’ve been openly disagreeing with popular Baha’i thinking on homosexuality and other hot button issues for more than twenty years, and I know other members who have done the same, without our membership status ever being questioned by any Baha’i institutions. That includes calling myself queer, and an atheist.

If it’s brought to the administration’s attention and they do nothing then they are not doing their assigned responsibilities. But I am not surprised as there is barely any functioning administration.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, I meant something a little tougher than that, Jim in my post to @Riders . If the Baha'i administration is allowing members to openly espouse atheism or homosexual marriage for example and that fact is brought to the administration's attention and if the administration does nothing then the Baha'i administration in that case is not doing its expressly assigned job.

Hi George,

You have not heard from me yet so it is time for me to say something.

I agree that the Baha'i administration should step in if a Baha'i is openly espousing homosexual behavior, but espousing atheism? How does one do that? Do they say "I am a Baha'i and I do not believe God exists?" I don't know of any Baha'i Laws that say we have to believe God exists, but why would a person who does not believe in God become a Baha'i? I am known among certain Baha'is for being angry at God and saying God is not All-Loving, but I still believe God exists. The day I stop believing that I will make a quick exit from the Baha'i Faith because being a Baha'i is not what I call fun.

Everyone has their own reasons for being a Baha'i. The ONLY reason I am a Baha'i is because I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God and I cannot unbelieve that because to me the evidence is incontrovertible. I have no mushy gushy feelings towards Baha'u'llah or God, as Christians have towards Jesus and God. I have a belief, but I have absolute certitude so I know it is the Truth. It would make no logical sense to me to run away from the Truth as I see it. Not only might there be repercussions in the afterlife, I do have a healthy fear of what God could do to me now. I cannot run away from an All-Powerful God. I am logical enough to know that. I tried to do that for the first 43 years I was a Baha'i, but it finally caught up with me.

But more than that, it is a moral issue for me because I care about other people. That was the primary reason I decided to come back to the Baha'i Faith after all those years. I saw the world situation deteriorating and I felt a responsibility to be part of the solution.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I’ll try to explain what I see that looks to me like possibly something that other people are objecting to sometimes. I see some people promoting some beliefs that they call “the Baha’i Faith.” Sometimes there are some differences between them in what they say, but they all say that there is only one Baha’i Faith and they don’t seem to ever openly disagree with each other, so it’s natural to think of everything that all of them are saying, along with what Baha’i scriptures say, as what they all believe.

My experience with the Baha’is on this forum is we are comfortable with each other and get along well. We will openly disagree with each other in a civil and respectful manner. There is rarely any unpleasantness. There is a group on this forum that I feel we share the same core values and we are supportive of each other. We will all turn to the writings for guidance if there’s confusion or uncertainty. However all of us spend most of our time on RF talking to those who are not Baha’is.

I’m not sure about ‘promotion of the Baha’i Faith’ as it sounds like marketing and sales. I would encourage everyone of live a morally coherent life and choose a religion or ideology if possible that works best for them. That could be a number of religions or worldviews. Being a Baha’i is a valid choice but so are many other choices too. Its not for me to determine what works for another but for each of us to establish what works for ourselves.

I see some of them saying that all religions are one, which might sometimes be understood as saying that Baha’is do not elevate their religion above the others. I think that I’ve seen at least one of them actually saying that explicitly. I don’t remember any of them openly disagreeing with that. At the same time, I see some of them saying that all beliefs contrary to theirs are false, and none of them openly disagreeing with that. I also see their scriptures saying that they update and replace all previous ones. It’s hard for me imagine that they really, honestly think that they aren’t elevating their religion above all others. I can understand the temptation to think that those people might be fooling themselves and/or trying to fool others.

As a Baha’i, I view all the main religions as being inspired from the same source. So in that sense we could say all the religions are one. Clearly what works for one person may not work for another so I would avoid the tendency to exalt one religion over another.

I personally would emphasise points of agreement and avoid using words like ‘false’ to describe beliefs I don’t agree with. Nor would I compare one religion to another for the purposes of exalting my faith is the best. My faith is best for me but may not be best for another.

The scriptures of world religions are extremely valuable whether the Bible, Quran, Buddhist Suttas or Vedas. They are unique and indispensible.

 

[Jim]

No, I meant something a little tougher than that, Jim in my post to @Riders . If the Baha'i administration is allowing members to openly espouse atheism or homosexual marriage for example and that fact is brought to the administration's attention and if the administration does nothing then the Baha'i administration in that case is not doing its expressly assigned job.

It looks to me like you’re talking about what you think Baha’i leaders in the past intended for the institutions to do, which I don’t think would even be possible in today’s world. I’m talking about what the institutions actually do. I’ve been openly calling myself queer and an atheist, for two or three years at least, maybe more. For more than ten years I’ve been saying openly in Internet discussions that I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against gay sex or gay marriage, except possibly against substituting the back of a man in the place of the front of a woman. I know that the institutions are well informed about what I’ve been saying and doing in Internet discussions, because I’ve informed them myself. none of them have ever questioned my membership status, or told me that what I’ve been saying and doing is wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it’s brought to the administration’s attention and they do nothing then they are not doing their assigned responsibilities. But I am not surprised as there is barely any functioning administration.

So, do you think it is the job of the Baha'i Administration to police people who post on the internet? Realistically, how could they even do that?

Barely any functioning administration, would you like to elaborate upon that? Mind you, as I said in my post to you, I have been away from the Baha'i Faith for many, many years.

 

[George-ananda]

So, do you think it is the job of the Baha'i Administration to police people who post on the internet? Realistically, how could they even do that?

Barely any functioning administration, would you like to elaborate upon that? Mind you, as I said in my post to you, I have been away from the Baha'i Faith for many, many years.

I said ‘if brought to their attention’.

 

[Jim]

... are the Baha'is bringing people together or pushing them away?

I think you already know my answer to that: pushing them away.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that he was talking about a hypothetical Baha’i Faith that could never possibly exist outside of some people’s imaginations.

And thank God and the Covenant of Baha'u'llah for that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I said ‘if brought to their attention’.

But even if it was brought to their attention, is that part of their roles and responsibilities?

 

[Jim]

I’m not sure about ‘promotion of the Baha’i Faith’ as it sounds like marketing and sales.

I see now that my use of the word varies a little. Sometimes what I mean by it is aiming to increase the popularity of some way of thinking or some way of doing things. For example I say that I’m practicing spiritual growth, community service, and friendliness and fellowship with people of all religions. Sometimes what I mean by it is trying to inform and educate people about something.

i actually know very little about what you actually do in the threads that you start. I’ve been imagining that sooner or later in each one you start talking about your Baha’i beliefs, and that doing that is part of what motivates you to start those threads. Now I’m aware that I might be wrong about that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I see now that my use of the word varies a little. Sometimes what I mean by it is aiming to increase the popularity of some way of thinking or some way of doing things. For example I say that I’m practicing spiritual growth, community service, and friendliness and fellowship with people of all religions. Sometimes what I mean by it is trying to inform and educate people about something.

i actually know very little about what you actually do in the threads that you start. I’ve been imagining that sooner or later in each one you start talking about your Baha’i beliefs, and that doing that is part of what motivates you to start those threads. Now I’m aware that I might be wrong about that.

In my observations, Jim, it depends on the person. Some do 100% of the time, some do 90% of the time, some do 50% of the time. Same with everyone on this forum. Some atheists, Christians, Hindus, etc mention it all the time, while others it's far less, or not at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Bahai's believe in divine guidance behind its positions so, no, you may not believe an act in accordance with your conscience if it disagrees with a Baha'i position and still remain a Baha'i in good standing.

That said, I still like Baha'i people and the Faith has some good ideas.

I know this is an off ball comment, but is that like JW?

 

[Dawnofhope]

But even if it was brought to their attention, is that part of their roles and responsibilities?

It is indeed the role of the Baha’i administration to consider the best course of action to be taken in instances of enrolled Baha’is who consistently promote teachings that contradict the fundamental Teachings of the Baha’i Faith though the internet. In rare instances that could result in the removal of membership after the individual concerned have been counselled but with no change in behaviour or attitude. @Jim identifies as being gay and an atheist. In addition he has other views that for some Baha’is might bring into question his loyalty to the Covenant. He has self-reported his internet activities and views to the Baha’i administration who have decided not to counsel Jim, nor make an issue of his membership. Based on my experience serving on Baha’i Assemblies and the institution of the counsellors as an assistant for protection the issues appear clear. The best course of action is no action. To the best of my knowledge Jim remains an enrolled member of the Baha’i Faith in good standing. I personally have no issues with any of it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

i actually know very little about what you actually do in the threads that you start. I’ve been imagining that sooner or later in each one you start talking about your Baha’i beliefs, and that doing that is part of what motivates you to start those threads. Now I’m aware that I might be wrong about that.

To be clear, I don’t start threads so I can start talking about the Baha’i Faith. They are topics that interest me. Of course as a Baha’i I’m interested in the interconnected of religions, universalism, Christian and Islamic theology, Hinduism and Buddhism. I don’t need to mention the words Baha’i, Bahá’u’lláh or progressive revelation to explore and discuss any of those themes and generally don’t.

 

[Jim]

... identifies as being gay ...

Not gay. Queer. The “Q” in “LGBTQ.”

 

[Dawnofhope]

I see now that my use of the word varies a little. Sometimes what I mean by it is aiming to increase the popularity of some way of thinking or some way of doing things. For example I say that I’m practicing spiritual growth, community service, and friendliness and fellowship with people of all religions. Sometimes what I mean by it is trying to inform and educate people about something.

Only through my inner life being transformed by the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh can I truly assist the promotion of the Cause of Bahá’u’lláh.

In sum, the ultimate triumph of the Cause is assured by that “one thing and only one thing” so poignantly emphasized by Shoghi Effendi, namely, “the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.”

Riḍván 1988 – To the Bahá’ís of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not gay. Queer. The “Q” in “LGBTQ.”

Not gay. Queer. The “Q” in “LGBTQ.”

Well the Q can refer to either questioning or queer. Queer is a rather vague term don’t you think? It can also be used pejoratively or in a derogatory manner.

What does the Q in LGBTQ stand for?

 

[Dawnofhope]

One criticism I’ve heard about the Baha’i Faith is that we exaggerate our numbers and that the Baha’i Faith is actually in decline rather than growing. It certainly is difficult to obtain objective data about numbers that would identify with a relatively small worldwide community and in many respects numbers are of limited value. The most important thing is the extent to which Bahá’u’lláh’s revelation transforms hearts and enables them to become better people.

I do recall mentioning to a member of this forum that the Baha’i Faith in my country (New Zealand) was growing and I was told he didn’t believe me. In New Zealand we have a census conducted every 5 years where religious affiliation is asked. This does provide a reasonably reliable measure of religious affiliation without any agendas. Interestingly the numbers of Baha’is grew about 11% from 2634 recorded in the 2013 census to 2925 in 2018.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

There's a Baha'i Administration and a house of Justice that straightens peoples view out and gives them counseling to retrain them to believe in Baha'i exactly and agree with everything Baha'i teaches? Wow sounds like a cult to me.When I went to visit Baha'i's in Second Life virtual reality game they told me they were accepting of Atheists, I guess it was a lie! Wow I am shocked.

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion the Baha’i administration provides counselling to retrain members to believe everything the Baha’i Faith teaches. It doesn’t, but agree it would be quite cult like if it were true.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion the Baha’i administration provides counselling to retrain members to believe everything the Baha’i Faith teaches.

This is absurd. I do not know exactly where she got that idea, but I can think of some possibilities.