The irony in the Baha'i faith

[Dawnofhope]

If you do't believe trying to control someones sexual identity is not cult like that's your deal.

Are you saying that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are all cults?

 

[Riders]

Are you saying that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are all cults?

What does that have to do with anything. Christian churches who are liberal accept GLBTS and also marry them and have them as leaders. Some churches are not liberal but as conservatives they choose not to bring up the Gay Lesbian topics and still allow those to choose. The real conservatives who are openly against GLBTs yea Id say so, they are either cults or very legalistic in my experience.

I can not speak for Jews or Muslims, bur Hindus and Buddhists. Uh ive been 2 4 Buddha temples, some of which the
teachers and leaders maybe conservative but its against their rules to bring up controversy or anything that could start a fight in the group, so officially, uh I do not believe any of them in Dallas actually do take a stand one way or the other.

Hindus are the same way the one Hare Krishna temple I went to, I brought it up to a couple of devotees they told em the same thing, the Bhagavad Gita has nothing about Homosexuality so they take o stand either way. They are against sleeping around, sexual amorality, sleeping with anyone your not married to. They condem a super sexual life but GLBTs can still follow all those rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

What does that have to do with anything. Christian churches who are liberal accept GLBTS and also marry them and have them as leaders. Some churches are not liberal but as conservatives they choose not to bring up the Gay Lesbian topics and still allow those to choose. The real conservatives who are openly against GLBTs yea Id say so, they are either cults or very legalistic in my experience.

I can not speak for Jews or Muslims, bur Hindus and Buddhists. Uh ive been 2 4 Buddha temples, some of which the
teachers and leaders maybe conservative but its against their rules to bring up controversy or anything that could start a fight in the group, so officially, uh I do not believe any of them in Dallas actually do take a stand one way or the other.

Hindus are the same way the one Hare Krishna temple I went to, I brought it up to a couple of devotees they told em the same thing, the Bhagavad Gita has nothing about Homosexuality so they take o stand either way. They are against sleeping around, sexual amorality, sleeping with anyone your not married to. They condem a super sexual life but GLBTs can still follow all those rules.

How does the fact that there is a Baha'i Law that precludes homosexual behavior turn the Baha'i Faith into a cult?
A Law is a Law but it is between the Baha'i and God whether they follow that Law or not. I am not saying Baha'is should knowingly break Laws, but I do not follow every Law perfectly and I do not think I will be punished for that. I just do the best that I can. That is all homosexuals are expected to do.

Imo, this whole thing about homosexuality has been blown way out of proportion. Nobody has ever been denied membership in the Baha'i Faith because he/she is homosexual. The worst thing that can happen is that they might lose their voting rights if they are flagrantly homosexual in a public place.

 

[Riders]

How does the fact that there is a Baha'i Law that precludes homosexual behavior turn the Baha'i Faith into a cult?
A Law is a Law but it is between the Baha'i and God whether they follow that Law or not. I am not saying Baha'is should knowingly break Laws, but I do not follow every Law perfectly and I do not think I will be punished for that. I just do the best that I can. That is all homosexuals are expected to do.

Imo, this whole thing about homosexuality has been blown way out of proportion. Nobody has ever been denied membership in the Baha'i Faith because he/she is homosexual. The worst thing that can happen is that they might lose their voting rights if they are flagrantly homosexual in a public place.

Heres what was saud. "It is indeed the role of the Baha’i administration to consider the best course of action to be taken in instances of enrolled Baha’is who consistently promote teachings that contradict the fundamental Teachings of the Baha’i Faith though the internet. In rare instances that could result in the removal of membership after the individual concerned have been counselled but with no change in behaviour or attitude. @Jim identifies as being gay and an atheist. In addition he has other views that for some Baha’is might bring into question his loyalty to the Covenant. He has self-reported his internet activities and views to the Baha’i administration who have decided not to counsel Jim, nor make an issue of his membership. Based on my experience serving on Baha’i Assemblies and the institution of the counsellors as an assistant for protection the issues appear clear. The best course of action is no action.

That says you have an administration that can remove people and counsel. The fact that you even give counseling to people through an administration at all sounds cult like.

I did have an experience with the guy who's the leader of the Second Life group Peter is his name, I asked about the homosexual community and Baha'i beliefs and he compared homosexuality and Bisexuality GLBTs to being on drugs. he said that type of sex is of any different then being a drug addict and its unhealthy.

Grant it he is very welcome at the UU church of Second Life which says a lot. UU church and Baha'i's share the same Island in Second Life. So that says they believe Peter and Baha'i's are peaceful which is good.

But the administration thing and counseling thing mentioned in that quot I quot'd creeps me out.

 

[oldbadger]

In my 3 years on this forum I have never heard any Baha'is describe their critics as Pharisee-like or Devil-like.

So you didn't read 'em. They're there.

My comments about pseudonyms were about the nature of world wide internet discussion groups such as these compared to being in a community where there are face to face interactions. I explained this was not a critcism but just the very different nature of online communities compared to neighbourhood communities. I agree the use of pseudonyms is best for groups like these.

What? 'Hiding behind pseudonyms'?
The very nature of the phrase gives all away!
And I've told you before, in the distant past, in respect of face-to-face discussion and debate, to be careful what you wish for. An audience can judge a debater before they have even made or answered a point in debating society or public event. And they cannot go away and not reply to simple questions.

Courts are similar. I used to attend Courts to give evidence a lot, about 1-2 times each month, and speed of response gets very fast and open in time.

That's not how I see it.

I know.

 

[oldbadger]

How does the fact that there is a Baha'i Law that precludes homosexual behavior turn the Baha'i Faith into a cult?.

Bahai got named as a cult way back in the late 60's. I even read a copy of the popular book by Walther Martin.

I've forgotten what his reasons were for that, but it's still in print to this day.

The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Ralston Martin - Goodreads
Goodreads › book › show › 210885.The_Kingdom_of_t...
Rating: 4.2 - ‎4,612 votes
The Kingdom of the Cults book. Read 108 reviews from the world's largest community for readers. The authoritative reference work on major cult systems fo...

 

[Trailblazer]

That says you have an administration that can remove people and counsel. The fact that you even give counseling to people through an administration at all sounds cult like.

I do not know of cults that remove people, most cults try to get more people to join.

It might sound strange to you that people are counseled but I see nothing odd about it. They are just trying to help people and thereby help the Faith. "Anything goes" type religions might be popular now because people want to be free to do whatever they want to do but total liberty is not in the best interest of individuals or society, Imo. Ultimately, it leads to chaos and immorality. All that said, the Baha'i Administration does not police people unless it is a very serious issue that brings disrepute to the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahai got named as a cult way back in the late 60's. I even read a copy of the popular book by Walther Martin.

I've forgotten what his reasons were for that, but it's still in print to this day.

The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Ralston Martin - Goodreads
Goodreads › book › show › 210885.The_Kingdom_of_t...
Rating: 4.2 - ‎4,612 votes
The Kingdom of the Cults book. Read 108 reviews from the world's largest community for readers. The authoritative reference work on major cult systems fo...

Anyone can write a book and label anything they want to...

The Baha'i Faith is widely recognized as a world religion, in spite of its smallness. It was even in the World Religions Encyclopedia in the library back when I became a Baha'i in 1970.

 

[oldbadger]

Anyone can write a book and label anything they want to...

Yes. So can the World if it wants to.

Where sea where I live is called 'The English Channel' but the people who live ion the other side, 20 miles away, call it 'La Manche' and the Germans (and Dutch?) used to call it the German Ocean.

We don't get what we want, I'm afraid.

The Baha'i Faith is widely recognized as a world religion, in spite of its smallness. It was even in the World Religions Encyclopedia in the library back when I became a Baha'i in 1970.

If other groups call you a cult, you're more or less stuck with it.

cult
/kʌlt/
noun

1. 1.
   a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. So can the World if it wants to.

Where sea where I live is called 'The English Channel' but the people who live ion the other side, 20 miles away, call it 'La Manche' and the Germans (and Dutch?) used to call it the German Ocean.

We don't get what we want, I'm afraid.

If other groups call you a cult, you're more or less stuck with it.

cult
/kʌlt/
noun

1. 1.
   a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.

Nothing anyone calls it can change what the Baha'i Faith actually is, IF the claims of Baha'u'llah are true. If not, there is nothing to worry about because eventually the Baha'i Faith will dry up and blow away, like a leaf in the fall storm. We are only in the spring season, time will tell.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious. For example, there was a time in history when most people did not believe we could ever fly in the air, but most people were wrong, as we found out later.

 

[Jim]

Heres what was saud. "It is indeed the role of the Baha’i administration to consider the best course of action to be taken in instances of enrolled Baha’is who consistently promote teachings that contradict the fundamental Teachings of the Baha’i Faith though the internet. In rare instances that could result in the removal of membership after the individual concerned have been counselled but with no change in behaviour or attitude. @Jim identifies as being gay and an atheist. In addition he has other views that for some Baha’is might bring into question his loyalty to the Covenant. He has self-reported his internet activities and views to the Baha’i administration who have decided not to counsel Jim, nor make an issue of his membership. Based on my experience serving on Baha’i Assemblies and the institution of the counsellors as an assistant for protection the issues appear clear. The best course of action is no action.

That says you have an administration that can remove people and counsel. The fact that you even give counseling to people through an administration at all sounds cult like.

I did have an experience with the guy who's the leader of the Second Life group Peter is his name, I asked about the homosexual community and Baha'i beliefs and he compared homosexuality and Bisexuality GLBTs to being on drugs. he said that type of sex is of any different then being a drug addict and its unhealthy.

Grant it he is very welcome at the UU church of Second Life which says a lot. UU church and Baha'i's share the same Island in Second Life. So that says they believe Peter and Baha'i's are peaceful which is good.

But the administration thing and counseling thing mentioned in that quot I quot'd creeps me out.

Riders, for whatever it might be worth to you coming from me, from forty years of observation and direct experience with Baha’i administration, I personally don’t think that what Adrian said is true. I don’t think that there is any rule or policy against Baha’is promoting views contrary to any Baha’i teachings, and I don’t think that anyone has ever been removed from the membership for that reason. I think that there has been some prejudice and discrimination against gays, but I’ve seen a lot of improvement in the twenty years that I’ve been following the developments, and I think that it will continue to improve. Most Baha’is are not split up into different denominations. We’re learning to work together under one administration, no matter how much we disagree about religious, political and social issues.

 

[oldbadger]

Nothing anyone calls it can change what the Baha'i Faith actually is, IF the claims of Baha'u'llah are true. If not, there is nothing to worry about because eventually the Baha'i Faith will dry up and blow away, like a leaf in the fall storm. We are only in the spring season, time will tell.

Yes. Time will tell, but 150+ years on, Bahai isn't a new-born. But time will tell.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious. For example, there was a time in history when most people did not believe we could ever fly in the air, but most people were wrong, as we found out later.

I'm sad to tell you that the above doesn't work in connection with human movements and human feelings.

Human feelings both transcend and fall short of the common sense of logic, I'm afraid, and typical examples of this fact can be seen in clothing fashions and motor car shapes. Human Fashions drive themselves regardless of what common sense decides.

Years ago my daughter came home wearing jeans that flared at the leg-ends. I said, 'Oh.... flares are back?' She answered, 'Wot!? What are they?' I explained. She told me a firm 'No!'. She would never wear flares..... she only wore boot-tops.

When the people decide upon a title, brand, name or description...... that's it. All the science and common sense and intellectualism in the World cannot help shove human fashion one inch.

 

[oldbadger]

Riders, for whatever it might be worth to you coming from me, from fifty years of observation and direct experience with Baha’i administration, I personally don’t think that what Adrian said is true. I don’t think that there is any rule or policy against Baha’is promoting views contrary to any Baha’i teachings, and I don’t think that anyone has ever been removed from the membership for that reason. I think that there has been some prejudice and discrimination against gays, but I’ve seen a lot of improvement in the twenty years that I’ve been following the developments, and I think that it will continue to improve. Most Baha’is are not split up into different denominations. We’re learning to work together under one administration, no matter how much we disagree about religious, political and social issues.

The above was sent to another.
Jim, in the UK all Bahais have had to be registered since the late 70's.

Question:- Are you a registered Bahai in your country?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. Time will tell, but 150+ years on, Bahai isn't a new-born. But time will tell.

Relative to all the other major religions, it is a newborn. At the end of the first Baha'i century, there were 5 million Baha'is. How many Christians do you think there were at the end of the first century?

“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193). Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”
How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

I'm sad to tell you that the above doesn't work in connection with human movements and human feelings.

Human feelings both transcend and fall short of the common sense of logic, I'm afraid, and typical examples of this fact can be seen in clothing fashions and motor car shapes. Human Fashions drive themselves regardless of what common sense decides.

That is very true. Human feelings both transcend and fall short of the common sense of logic, and that is why people cling tenaciously to the older religions that they are familiar with instead of believing in a new and different religion they are suspicious of, even though it makes more sense to believe in the newer religion.

But my point was that just because very few people believe in a religion that does not mean it is not true. That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

When the people decide upon a title, brand, name or description...... that's it. All the science and common sense and intellectualism in the World cannot help shove human fashion one inch.

How true that is! When people decide on a brand of religion they LIKE, that's it. You could not pry them loose of it with a crow bar. You know full well that is true of almost all Jews and Christians. If Christians drop out they become atheists, not Baha'is... that silly little religion that is only 0.1% of the world population cannot possibly be true -- classic ad populum fallacy.

 

[oldbadger]

Relative to all the other major religions, it is a newborn. At the end of the first Baha'i century, there were 5 million Baha'is. How many Christians do you think there were at the end of the first century?

You're comparing Bahai to major religions.
It's not.

“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193). Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”
How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

So what?
Because scones cost £1 for four here, the price of motor cars in New Zealand is higher...?

That is very true. Human feelings both transcend and fall short of the common sense of logic, and that is why people cling tenaciously to the older religions that they are familiar with instead of believing in a new and different religion they are suspicious of, even though it makes more sense to believe in the newer religion.

But my point was that just because very few people believe in a religion that does not mean it is not true. That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

How true that is! When people decide on a brand of religion they LIKE, that's it. You could not pry them loose of it with a crow bar. You know full well that is true of almost all Jews and Christians. If Christians drop out they become atheists, not Baha'is... that silly little religion that is only 0.1% of the world population cannot possibly be true -- classic ad populum fallacy.

Call the people false as much as you like, you'll just beat your head against solid concrete that is human mindset.
You cannot shift human mindset easily. Bahai is a common example imo.

Ad populum fallacy is a fancy word used by exasperated intellectuals who can't have what they want. It is an English Literature University Lecturer knashing her teeth every time she overhears a modern kid describing a brilliant motor car as 'well-sick'. (a neighbour of mine)

Us non-Bahais here probably believe that Bahai has not grown because we see clearly how fraught it is with historical, religious and political IRONY. In that respect @Sirona got the thread title bag on accurate. No fallacies there.

 

[Trailblazer]

You're comparing Bahai to major religions.
It's not.

That depends upon what you mean by major.
If major is only about numbers, no it is not major.
But nevertheless it is considered "a religion."
Everyone who knows religious history knows that all the "major religions" started small.
Why would the Baha'i Faith be any different? People have not changed.

 

[Riders]

Riders, for whatever it might be worth to you coming from me, from forty years of observation and direct experience with Baha’i administration, I personally don’t think that what Adrian said is true. I don’t think that there is any rule or policy against Baha’is promoting views contrary to any Baha’i teachings, and I don’t think that anyone has ever been removed from the membership for that reason. I think that there has been some prejudice and discrimination against gays, but I’ve seen a lot of improvement in the twenty years that I’ve been following the developments, and I think that it will continue to improve. Most Baha’is are not split up into different denominations. We’re learning to work together under one administration, no matter how much we disagree about religious, political and social issues.

Well that's positive I'm glad!

 

[Riders]

The above was sent to another.
Jim, in the UK all Bahais have had to be registered since the late 70's.

Question:- Are you a registered Bahai in your country?

No.

 

[oldbadger]

No.

Thankyoiu for that.
You must have read a post that I missed, but in any event maybe @Jim would confirm that.... let's see.

Next question:- Do you happen to know if all Bahais (regardless of their country) have to register as Bahais?

 

[oldbadger]

That depends upon what you mean by major.
If major is only about numbers, no it is not major.

I only made mention of this because you compared Bahai to 'Other Major Religions'.... is all.