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Featured Taliban

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    the pleasure is mine.
     
  2. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Something similar was referred to on one of the news broadcasts. The Taliban began with the smaller tribal villages, sort of what we might call a grass routes plan. By the time came they merely had to put it in action.
     
  3. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The first thing is to take a step back and learn and to have that most impossible of virtues: patience.

    We should not to jump to conclusions. I see assumptions, maybe correct and maybe not correct, that they are the same as they were 20 years ago. They seem to be promising different actions. Let's see what they really do first.

    There have been various negative incidents in Kabul. Are these the result of policy or the actions of individual taliban with limited or no approval from the higher ups?

    I also see people making assumptions about what "sharia" is to them now. 20 years ago people were focused on the execrable oppression of women. They claim they are not like that now. Let's see.

    Another related thing we in the West can do is to understand what they mean by "sharia" and how it fits into the history of Islam and ideas of today's Muslims.

    They claim they won't give safe haven to international terrorist groups. Let our actions be responses to whether or not they follow through with that promise or not.

    We also have a lot of their financial assets locked up. We can simply let them know that we will take actions according to our ideals depending on what happens next there. If they truly don't repeat the hideous oppression of women and so forth, then let's recognize that by releasing the funds we have sequestered.
     
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  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Perhaps, can't blame them for the aftermath, but you can blame them for selling people a bill of goods. Something Biden even today persists in.
    I suppose you can blame us for buying it in the first place.
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    See, if there were some "negative incidents" and if they were actions of individuals, it is still the responsibility of the governance. Vis a vis, the Taliban. One could say that these incidents are done by individuals but then they must publicly seek punishment for the perpetrators. But again, that is an outsiders easy verdict. When there is a government take over, or a revolution, many things take place and it is normal. Still, criminals should be given due diligence.

    The Taliban maybe different to what they were two decades ago, but also one must note that those number of decades ago, the people were also used to them, yet now they are used to a bit of a different system so the tolerance level might not be the same. Maybe that is the reason the Taliban have publicly made announcements of what policy changes they are willing to make. And maybe now the people might not be so tolerant if they break these policies they promise.

    Just yesterday someone shared an article where it says the Taliban has announced they will not let girls study. Of course that is conflicting with other news, and is a bogus article by the looks of it. But this kind of propaganda will be there all over the place. So as you say one has to be patient and of course use our God given brains.

    The Taliban will not give a damn about financial assets. They never have. That will not stand ground. But now the country is different and they will have to resort to highly suggestive diplomatic relations with its neighbours who will also worry about their reputation. The small world now is quite different to what it was. And everyone knows that financially squeezing them will only make them oppress the people more. This is the case with all countries that have been sanctioned. The governments who do the sanctioning do this knowingly. Thus if anyone actually cares about people, they will not do that. One of the main reasons for the public in that country to be angry with the previous afghan government was because they were pocketing a lot of the aid. It was not trickling down to the people as it should have been. While there is no guarantee that there will be a change in the manner in which these funds are managed, there is definitely a guarantee there won't be so much funds any more because the new governance will not sell like the others are used to. This is fact. What we must realise is, one could be an idiot, but he could be a patriotic idiot.

    The terrorist issue is just nonsense. If you speak to Afghans extensively they will say that they didnt know about terrorists until they heard about it after they were being bombarded since 911. They are just saying this "we will not harbour anyone" simply to speak the language the world is speaking and the world is speaking form what they learned from the TV.

    Shariah is a term. It is foreign to the west so it seems like a book or a particular ideology. But to these people the Shariah is just "law". And this "New Shariah" that they were bragging about after the Russians left, and the united governance was implemented by the Taliban is brand new. It is not their old or traditional law, though they still called their old ways "shariah".

    There is a lot in what you say Sun Rise. Very thought provoking. Thanks.
     
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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I am really sorry. I dont think I understood you.
     
  7. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Yes, I think that is the point. 1000 years ago this seemed to have been the way, but I am glad here in the West we changed this. Unfortunately, IMO, some still do it in the ancient way

    I don't see imposing a certain life on others by force as peaceful. Although, if Afghan people are all Muslim and are used to such a life then maybe it's peace for them (hence IMO it's better that the West don't interfere, unless asked to help)

    I have seen documentaries about children who were held captive in a sect their whole life, and 'felt' that all this was normal (not being allowed to choose and feel for yourself). And it took many years for them to get out of this.
     
    #27 stvdv, Aug 19, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
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  8. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    It's a rock and a hard place. The West can't help, won't help (for the foreseeable) and won't be invited back any time soon. But, rather like North Korea, it's going to be hell for the inhabitants, particularly those who happen to be female or don't want to toe the line.
     
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  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I think, there should be a voting in Afghanistan, so, people decide if they want Taliban or not. So far it only seems, many Afghans were trying to scape from Taliban, and were scared of them.
     
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  10. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    The war in Afghanistan (against Taliban) was started by President W. Bush.

    It began in the aftermath of the 911 attack. The Taliban were US allies at the time that had previously helped the US fight off a Soviet takeover of Afghanistan (along with its resources)). The US also got Osama bin Laden (of the al Qaeda) to help fight off Soviet incursion. This is how bin Laden ended up in Afghanistan in the first place.

    Bin Laden was loved wherever he went. He had wells drilled so people would have fresh water to drink for the first time, instead of suffering with debilitating pain from intestinal parasites. Bin Laden made farms productive and bought tractors to ease labor. This provided food to the region.

    The Taliban (remember....they were allies of the United States) captured bin Laden and his top aides just 9 days after the 911 attack, and offered to turn him over to the United States, provided that the US presented proof of bin Laden's involvement in the 911 attack (or other terrorist activity).

    Bin Laden was considered the "where's Waldo" of terrorists. That is, any time there was a meeting of extremists and terrorists, there was bin Laden, somewhere in the picture....indicating many possible (but not provable) links to terrorism.

    W. Bush wanted to appear decisive and was too hasty to wait for proof while US lives were at stake (in case of another terrorist attack). Condoleeza Rice (then Secretary of State) advised that we take the war to the al Qaeda, rather than letting them come to America and attack us first.

    W. Bush had no proof of terrorism, so, when he tried to recruit other nations to help with his war, many rejected him. Notably France (and W. Bush taunted them as cowards who would turn-tail and run as he perceived they did in WW II against Hitler's Nazis). They really didn't deserve that kind of treatment, and French restaurants in America suffered as a result (many refused to eat there.....they were French).

    Germany refused to help the US attack the al Qaeda. But, Tony Blair (of England) said that since the war of 1812, the US has been a staunch ally of the United States, and even though he sees no possible linkage between the al Qaeda and terrorism, and also sees no possible linkage between the Taliban and al Qaeda, he is willing to commit troops and weaponry to the war effort.

    W. Bush asserted that he would eventually have proof of terrorist activities, as soon as he attacks them.

    W. Bush had no reason whatsoever to link Iraq with terrorism, though they were not very fine fellows. The reasons for war against Iraq are laid out in the War Powers Resolution of 1998, signed by President Bill Clinton and both houses of Congress. Though the Republicans of Congress wanted Saddam out of Iraq, they were not willing to give any military authority to Clinton (president and commander-in-chief of the military) because that would have made Clinton (who is a Democrat) seem decisive and heroic in battle. So, they said that he was allowed (in 1998) in rabble rouse...get people angry at Saddam and see if his own citizens would be willing to kick him out of power.

    So, W. Bush had "some" reason, other than finishing his father's war in Iraq. Actually, his father's solution (which at the time I thought was idiotic), was to give back weapons to Saddam, and put him back into power if he agreed to WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) inspections, a no fly zone, and promise not to engage in war. The outcome was that no weapons were found (and the US tried calling a balloon truck a weapon, and tried asserting that wrong sized aluminum tubes were used for plutonium refinement).

    W. Bush, being a war monger, also tried to make war against the peaceful nation of Niger which had no connection to terrorism whatsoever. W. Bush falsely asserted that Niger was selling yellow-cake Uranium to Iraq. W. Bush got Wilson to make up false stories about Niger, but he refused to precipitate a war. W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney then outed Valery Plame (Wilson's CIA wife), which exposed all those embedded operatives that Plame had associated with and ruined her career (everyone knew that she was with the CIA). Secret agents may have been put to death as a result of W. Bush's vengeance.

    The so-called opium conspiracy had nothing to do with the truth. The whole story was made up to look like the US had a reason to fight the Taliban.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Predominantly, it is the west who is invading other countries today, and it is the west that have been doing this for maybe half a millennium if not more. Invading another country is not an ancient thing, it is happening today, and has been happening all throughout in one way or another.
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The Taliban would not change their governance to a democracy. Maybe in the future. It could be an outcome.
     
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  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    There was an old joke at the time.

    W Bush is giving a speech.
    One of his men tap his shoulder and says "Sir, your wife is pregnant".
    Bush replies: "Must be bin laden".
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    This is true.
     
  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Too early to do anything. Will Taliban be able to handle finances or become another North Korea? Will there be opponents joining together? What will be reaction of Taliban factions when Pakistan tries to interfere? How would they manage tribal and religious differences among Afghans (Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Aimaq, Turkmen, Baloch, Pashai, Nuristani, Gujjar, Arab, Brahui, Qizilbash, Pamiri, Kyrgyz, Sadat and others - Wikipedia; Shia, Sunni)? And how strict and cruel their Sharia law will be? Just wait and watch.
    Yeah, bin Laden's computers were full of pornographic material.
     
  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    In your opinion, does Quran teach principles of democracy and agrees with democracy or it rejects it?
     
  17. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    One thing I had not thought about earlier. I was listening to KQED Forum while driving around where several Afghans who are in the USA were being interviewed.

    One comment that struck me as accurate was that there was no real government there. I don't think the taliban were ready to take over, so fast was their advance.

    One worked for the US government there.

    He said first we need to understand that in Afghanistan, one's family is everyone in the house - parents, wife, children, brothers & sisters. So to them, getting the family out means all of them.

    He also said he went through all sorts of checks, including biometric, before he was hired there. When he applied to come here, it took 2 years to get approval. He also said it can take 4 years for the sclerotic US bureaucracy to give approval.

    One thing we should do is to destroy all the unneeded red tape that punishes 99% of the people waiting to avoid having one bad actor slip in.

    The web page for that show noted another page about what Americans can do to help The Simple Steps You Can Take Right Now To Help Afghan Refugees
     
  18. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Great point. Also there are warlords in the Taliban so we could easily see a nation divided by ethnic/tribal groups and by which warlord controls in an area. For example, the Haqqani Network.
     
  19. Vee

    Vee Well-Known Member
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    I don't believe this at all. Violent people can't produce peace. They produce evil, corruption, and more violence.
    Now, if you want to prove me wrong, please move to Afghanistan, stay there for a couple of years, not as a Taliban but as a normal citizen. No weapons for you to defend yourself, no preferential treatment. If you're still alive in two years, please let me know how great that kind of peace was. I'd love to hear about your experience, but not from the comfort of your home sitting at a computer in a free country. Make sure you go there so you can be sure of what you're talking about.
     
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  20. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    I’m by no means convinced the Taliban will be able to sustain anything like a coherent government, for any great length of time. They’ll need help from without to do that. Where will that come from? Not Saudi this time. Pakistan perhaps, but not openly, and not without ambivalence.

    We’ll see. But whatever alternative to the Taliban does emerge, it will have to do so from within Afghanistan itself.
     
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