Does that mean it is wrong for one society to criticize another's view?They belong to society. Different societies have differences on how they view merit and sin.
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Does that mean it is wrong for one society to criticize another's view?They belong to society. Different societies have differences on how they view merit and sin.
Merit and sin are not the guidelines given by any God or Allah. They belong to society. Different societies have differences on how they view merit and sin. This is a 'carrot and sword' policy of the society and does not concern any God or Allah. Do good things and you will go to heaven, do evil things and you will have to suffer in hell. Have the propagators of different religions said anything new or other than that?Read it. Word Salad.
I do not wish to address all your questions, but this one is something I think is important.
No, nobody, no possible way, can bear the sins of anybody else. Even the Bible makes this clear (though muddies it, as usual, in other texts).
But the most important thing about this idea of Christ as sacrificial lamb for the atonement of sins is this: It seems to render God as other than omnipotent -- it says, "I, God, cannot actually forgive unless I get a scapegoat, a sacrifice -- just saying 'sorry' isn't good enough."
That seems pretty pathetic, to me. I can forgive with nothing more than a sincere apology -- or even without one, when I've understand that what caused someone to hurt me might have been outside of their control. In that respect, I count myself as much more forgiving than the God of the Bible.
True, which is why Jesus isn't a viable prophet. Of course, I pointed out that prophecy had already been given to Jewish prophets, and, the entire nation at Sinai.According to the Jewish perspective, prophecy stopped with Malachi.
but you asked "at what point have the Jews experienced this outpouring?" That's in the past tense and I answered historically. In the messianic days, when all Jews are brought back to Israel, well then, your objection will have been dismissed.So, God is not in the midst of Israel when lsrael are not in their land.
So Jews never suffered IN Israel? Oh.The sufferings of Israel, particularly during the diaspora, have not occurred whilst the Spirit of God has been upon Israel. God turned his face for a reason.
Hoshea 6 talks about when the third temple is built, after the exile ends. People will return to God and he will refresh us like rain through justice and righteousness. These particular verses don't mention a messiah.Who is the face and countenance of God, if not the Messiah? And who is the Messiah if not the righteousness of God?
By that logic, if a grown man, with children and grandchildren were to commit a crime, then the same punishment visited on him must be visited on his children and their children, regardless of what they might have done or not done. And that is categorically NOT justice. (The Bible contradicts itself frequently on this point -- see Exodus 20:5-6; 34:6-7; Numbers 14:18 versus (Jeremiah 31:29; Ezekiel 18:2; Job 21:19)God, as an omnipotent Spirit, could forgive, but that would contradict the justice underpinning his original commandment to Adam, 'in the day that thou eatest thereof [from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil] thou shalt surely die'. He did eat, and the wages of sin is death. So who is going to pay the price? All the sons of Adam are under the same condemnation.
As "The Lamb" that proceeded from God cannot die, but continues just the way it started, that can't be a realy sacrifice, now can it?God's forgiveness comes through a vicarious offering. As the scriptures say, the greatest thing a man can do is lay down his life for his friends [John 15:13]. Since the 'Lamb of God' proceeded from God, the offering is from God, not just from man. The type for this sacrifice is Abraham offering his 'only begotten son' Isaac. And where did that take place? Mount Moriah.
What makes a person aware of personal sin? What does it mean to 'repent'?
Dear Redemptionsong,
In reply to a different thread I wrote (roughly) something I feel works here too:
“Every interaction has an indirect impact on others and on the world as we know it. Every interaction is therefore an opportunity to contribute constructively to the whole. But the will to see this and to consciously act upon it, is entirely up to ourselves.”
Another’s wrongdoings onto us, can easily lead us to personally contribute negatively to our surroundings; spreading suffering and hatred wherever we go (also self harm/sabotage belongs here). To not do this, requires much self-assessment and hard work, but it is well-worth it, I think.
Through understanding the impact (on selves and others) of the views and actions we choose to live by, we discover the power that we actually can have over the context of our own lives and realise that we really do have the means to say “I have been wronged and I have suffered but I refuse to pass your “sins” onto others. I take back any power I gave to your [actions] hold over me; the ‘buck’ [sin] stops here!”
In my experience, this is often when true repentance and change occurs too (to truly repent, in my opinion, is to change).
Humbly
Hermit
By that logic, if a grown man, with children and grandchildren were to commit a crime, then the same punishment visited on him must be visited on his children and their children, regardless of what they might have done or not done. And that is categorically NOT justice. (The Bible contradicts itself frequently on this point -- see Exodus 20:5-6; 34:6-7; Numbers 14:18 versus (Jeremiah 31:29; Ezekiel 18:2; Job 21:19)
What real sense can be made out of a book that contradicts itself totally? Surely none, without having to make human-only guesses at what it all means, human-only guesses are bound to be wrong.
As "The Lamb" that proceeded from God cannot die, but continues just the way it started, that can't be a realy sacrifice, now can it?
True, which is why Jesus isn't a viable prophet. Of course, I pointed out that prophecy had already been given to Jewish prophets, and, the entire nation at Sinai.
but you asked "at what point have the Jews experienced this outpouring?" That's in the past tense and I answered historically. In the messianic days, when all Jews are brought back to Israel, well then, your objection will have been dismissed.
So Jews never suffered IN Israel? Oh.
Hoshea 6 talks about when the third temple is built, after the exile ends. People will return to God and he will refresh us like rain through justice and righteousness. These particular verses don't mention a messiah.
Thanks for the input.
In my opinion, God has a better perspective on the needs of the world than anyone on earth! God is the One who is best able to devise a plan of redemption and renewal. With this in mind, it strikes me that men and women should seek to understand and do God's will.
The problem with doing things your own way is that even well intentioned actions can go seriously wrong. Huge sums of money intended to support the poor end up getting siphoned off by corrupt governments and individuals. At a personal level, long-term ministry for good takes a toll, and requires reserves of strength that only God, IMO, can supply. I think of Martin Luther King Jnr, who experienced very dark moments, and was only able to continue in his struggle because he found strength in God.
What we do know about God is that he loves a person 'of a contrite and humble spirit'. [Isaiah 57:15]
It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.
What makes a person aware of personal sin?
What does it mean to 'repent'?
Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?
Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]
Your thoughts, please. Thank you.
However, have you considered that since humans have been on this planet for a minimum of 100,000 years (and almost certainly more -- up to 300,000 -- but let''s leave it at 100,000), for this "salvation" to have been given just 2,000 years ago mean that for 98,000 years (98% percent, minimum,, more likely over 99%), humans were left to die without that salvation?It might appear unfair on the children of Adam to be born in sin, but that does not prevent them from finding salvation. It places the onus on every individual to seek their own salvation.
I don't see the contradictions in scripture that you see. I see only justice and grace.
Certainly, it never ceases to amaze me that an innocent and sinless man should be prepared to lay down his life that I, a sinner and worm, might have life!
IMHO, it is not wrong to point out if the other society has some lacuna or the other; for example, caste differences in Hinduism. That encourages the other society to improve. But castigating them will be wrong. Each society has its problems.Does that mean it is wrong for one society to criticize another's view?
You believe, I don't. So, I am not afraid of YOUR sky daddy. I will not be there for God to judge me. I would have dissolved in the environment from which I arose, back to roots (four for Greeks and five elements for Hindus, Panca-tattva, as the theists say).I would say that you cannot do what is pleasing to God without his Spirit. Religion does not supply the Spirit, but Christ does [IMO]. This makes the Messiah unique among men.
If there is one God, as I believe there is, then all men will be judged by the one God. Whether you believe in sin or not, you will be judged by God's standard of truth.
I didn't say it was. You said that certain things happened outside of Israel and now you accept that some happened inside. Instead of changing the topic, just accept the correction and move on.Jews may have suffered in Israel, but that depended on their obedience to God. Just how much dishonouring does God have to put up with before He takes offence and punishes? The exile of Jews is a punishment, and a time of trial, not a blessing.
Your conclusion is yours. I have already shown you that the spirit alreadyt was poured on the nation as a whole. If you want to claim that the spirit is no longer on the people, then say that -- not that it never was.The thing is, the Jewish nation only experiences 'salvation' and peace when they occupy their land and have the Messiah as their king. This, as you remark, is a future hope. It also means that the Holy Spirit has not yet been poured out on the Jewish nation.
And in messianic days, Jews will be back in Israel, with the previously poured spirit. Great.The logic of this is that the Spirit of God (experienced as 'rain' when the Messiah is present) has not been poured out upon the Jews in exile. Hosea 5:15 'I [God] will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early'.
OK, so that's great. Whether or not God remains among the people outside of Israel is a separate question (one which Judaism has text based answers for -- Vayigash 5773 - The Shechina In Galut! - TAL )So, God leaves Ephraim and Judah. He does not remain amongst them. It is only when Ephraim and Judah repent in their affliction that they are able to say, 'for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up'.[Hosea 6:1]
Why do you mention "offering"? What does that have to do with anything.This doesn't sound to me like a people who are YET able to be an acceptable offering.
Well, I would prefer to look at 53:10 with a different word, not "offering" -- the Judaica Press uses "restitution." If you use the word "offering" then you start importing all the biblical ideas of the laws of sacrifices.They appear to have enough sins of their own! [Let's not overlook Isaiah 53:10, 'thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin']
But isn't improvement based on each society's subject definition of improvement?That encourages the other society to improve.
I agree with much of your post barring the opening section.
For example, one might have the law that states, Thou shalt not commit murder, as is common to many faiths.
Recognition of sin would be to admit wrong doing as a murderer, and repentance would involve changing the direction of one's life so as to become 'life affirming' (if a second opportunity at life is not cut short by justice and death).
Yes, others may suggest, but it will be the society which will address it. It may not do what others have suggested, but do it their way. For example, arranged marriage in India. It is still there, but the difference is that the wishes of the boy and the girl are now taken into consideration. Previously, it was a dictat.But isn't improvement based on each society's subject definition of improvement?
However, have you considered that since humans have been on this planet for a minimum of 100,000 years (and almost certainly more -- up to 300,000 -- but let''s leave it at 100,000), for this "salvation" to have been given just 2,000 years ago mean that for 98,000 years (98% percent, minimum,, more likely over 99%), humans were left to die without that salvation?
Forgive me Redemptionsong,
I must confess that I am a little unclear on how your response here relates to the questions in your OP that I chose to address:
a) what makes us aware of personal sin? and b) what does it mean to repent?
Humbly
Hermit