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Sin and Repentance

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You're free to derail your own thread about 'Sin and Repentance' by bringing the Messiah into it, but that's not the discussion I'm having.

As far as I can see, the Messiah is central to the issue of sin and repentance. But if you think differently, then why not explain what purpose the Messiah has in his coming? If it's to bring world peace, why can't you achieve that without the Messiah? As you say, he's only a human being, so how much good can one human being do?
 

Rizdek

Member
It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

What makes a person aware of personal sin?

What does it mean to 'repent'?

Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?

Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]

Your thoughts, please. Thank you.

To me, forgetting all religious overtones, repentance means someone recognizes that what he has done was wrong in some way, he recognizes he ought not to do wrong and sets out to not do those things he sees as wrong in the future. It might also involve him trying to make amends with anyone he's harmed.

HOW he determines what is wrong IMHO is through a combination of listening to his instincts, considering what his society deems right/wrong AND overlaying that with reasonable application of empathy. Is it fool proof? No. But other than that, I know of no way someone will recognize right from wrong. I believe humans, along with some other higher animals, evolved with some sense of right and wrong within the confines of their species. IOW, what is 'right' for a lion, ie a male lion slaughtering the offspring from some other male lion, would be deemed horrific to humans. But that's THEIR kind of morality, for want of a better word. And lions live by THAT code...it is how they survived and thrive. Humans, I believe survive and thrive living by other kinds of codes which most likely involve the things that comprise our codes/laws/norms.

No...one person cannot bear the sins of another. I don't care what a god might say, it is simply an impossibility. Even if a god says that's the way it must be, said god is wrong and it's nonsense.

NOW, a capricious god might look at the world and decide that this or that action is a 'sin' and then decide that all those sins are somehow no longer too bad to forgive because some entity suffered, but that's just an arbitrary whim on the part of that god. He could likewise say the suffering of an entire people...ie the Jews, can likewise somehow make it easier for him to save humanity from sin whether the Bible says that's what happened or not. Or, a god could say that by making all the water on an uninhabited planet boil is how he deals with sin and it would be just as effective.

But in the end, regardless of what a god says, one is still responsible for the wrongs they commit against their fellowman and the degree to which they are ever forgiven is entirely UP TO the wronged party, A person can forgive themselves for their past deeds and...that's one way to deal with guilt. But that is irrelevant from the point of view of another, wronged party.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Does this mean you believe that whenever Jews are going through a time of oppression and persecution, it is only because of the sin and/or ignorance of other nations, and not their own?
Nope, not at all. It means that when other groups oppress Jews, that oppression acts as a way to ensure their peace and so Jews suffer so that they can succeed. Jews are punishd for their own behaviors also. This is just about a perception made by other nations regarding their own behavior.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
These are actually classed as 'categories' of laws and there are up to 30.

Yes, sticking to these is pleasing to G-d. Why make more rules and increase the chances of people sinning? Or why would He make rules at all if people following them weren't pleasing to Him? He's pretty serious about people following the rules as we see from the prophets.

What does this have to do with the Messiah? The only person who can repent of your sin is you.

If having more rules increases the chances of sinning, why not do away with all rules and, in consequence, you will have no sin! :)
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
If having more rules increases the chances of sinning, why not do away with all rules and, in consequence, you will have no sin! :)
That's right.

You will also have no merit because you did no mitzvoth. You had to put up no resistance to anything. So you've earned nothing.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
To me, forgetting all religious overtones, repentance means someone recognizes that what he has done was wrong in some way, he recognizes he ought not to do wrong and sets out to not do those things he sees as wrong in the future. It might also involve him trying to make amends with anyone he's harmed.

HOW he determines what is wrong IMHO is through a combination of listening to his instincts, considering what his society deems right/wrong AND overlaying that with reasonable application of empathy. Is it fool proof? No. But other than that, I know of no way someone will recognize right from wrong. I believe humans, along with some other higher animals, evolved with some sense of right and wrong within the confines of their species. IOW, what is 'right' for a lion, ie a male lion slaughtering the offspring from some other male lion, would be deemed horrific to humans. But that's THEIR kind of morality, for want of a better word. And lions live by THAT code...it is how they survived and thrive. Humans, I believe survive and thrive living by other kinds of codes which most likely involve the things that comprise our codes/laws/norms.

No...one person cannot bear the sins of another. I don't care what a god might say, it is simply an impossibility. Even if a god says that's the way it must be, said god is wrong and it's nonsense.

NOW, a capricious god might look at the world and decide that this or that action is a 'sin' and then decide that all those sins are somehow no longer too bad to forgive because some entity suffered, but that's just an arbitrary whim on the part of that god. He could likewise say the suffering of an entire people...ie the Jews, can likewise somehow make it easier for him to save humanity from sin whether the Bible says that's what happened or not. Or, a god could say that by making all the water on an uninhabited planet boil is how he deals with sin and it would be just as effective.

But in the end, regardless of what a god says, one is still responsible for the wrongs they commit against their fellowman and the degree to which they are ever forgiven is entirely UP TO the wronged party, A person can forgive themselves for their past deeds and...that's one way to deal with guilt. But that is irrelevant from the point of view of another, wronged party.

The problem I see with this approach is that morality is no longer objectively determined, as it is by God. Instead of having God as your judge, you have men. As we know, the morality of men (and women) is constantly changing, and has only consensus to support its claims. Man becomes God.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
That's right.

You will also have no merit because you did no mitzvoth. You had to put up no resistance to anything. So you've earned nothing.

Then why not increase the rules and gain more merit? Orthodox Jews, following 613 laws, have a greatly enhanced chance of gaining merit with God. Noahides are, by self-imposed restraints, limiting their chances of merit with God!
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Here's what Aish.com has to say about the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53:
'Christianity claims that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus, as the 'suffering servant'.

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ('Israel') are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the 'Servant of God' (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the servant of God is Israel.

When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being 'bruised, crushed and as sheep brought for the slaughter' at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognise and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews'.

Do you agree with this interpretation?
To a large degree, yes, this is certainly a mostly reasonable understanding.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Then why not increase the rules and gain more merit? Orthodox Jews, following 613 laws, have a greatly enhanced chance of gaining merit with God. Noahides are, by self-imposed restraints, limiting their chances of merit with God!
Yes, but they can choose to follow certain Torah laws if they wish, such as keeping kashrut and so on (just no Shabbat observance and some other things). But the idea is you gain more merit by keeping the rules you're given because you're more likely to want to rebel against those since they're been imposed upon you; whereas if you choose to, say, keep the laws of kashrus, you've chosen that instead of been commanded, and since you've chosen that it's obviously not going to be as much as a challenge to you as if you find it too hard you can just drop it.

You're also held to your own level and such, but it becomes a bit complex from here. A lot of it depends on individual character and challenges in life.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

What makes a person aware of personal sin?

What does it mean to 'repent'?

Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?

Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]

Your thoughts, please. Thank you.

Biblically, Jews only are called to repent (return to their God). Gentiles are called to trust Jesus for salvation.

Replace "Him" in Isaiah 53 with "Israel" and you get bizarre statements like "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin".

Israel/the Jewish people never DIED. We have persisted since the time of Jesus.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Biblically, Jews only are called to repent (return to their God). Gentiles are called to trust Jesus for salvation.

Replace "Him" in Isaiah 53 with "Israel" and you get bizarre statements like "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin".

Israel/the Jewish people never DIED. We have persisted since the time of Jesus.
Can you please show me which verses these statements come from?
""Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin"."
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Biblically, Jews only are called to repent (return to their God). Gentiles are called to trust Jesus for salvation.

Replace "Him" in Isaiah 53 with "Israel" and you get bizarre statements like "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin".

Israel/the Jewish people never DIED. We have persisted since the time of Jesus.

I agree with the second part of your post. But, surely, within the body of Christ, are not both Jew and Gentile called to repentance and belief? I don't see there being two different bodies, one for Jews and another for Gentiles.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
To a large degree, yes, this is certainly a mostly reasonable understanding.

The lead in to Isaiah 53 can be seen in the words of Isaiah 52:12-15. The JPS Tanakh 1985 side notes read, 'God's first speech. God describes the servant, who will ultimately, and surprisingly, achieve great things. 14: So marred....semblance, rather, 'His appearance was more disfigured than any man's, his form, more than any person's.'

This note is based on the words [verse 14], 'Just as the many were appalled at him - So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, His form, beyond human semblance-'

How is this explained? Is this talking about 'my servant Israel', the Jews?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The lead in to Isaiah 53 can be seen in the words of Isaiah 52:12-15. The JPS Tanakh 1985 side notes read, 'God's first speech. God describes the servant, who will ultimately, and surprisingly, achieve great things. 14: So marred....semblance, rather, 'His appearance was more disfigured than any man's, his form, more than any person's.'

This note is based on the words [verse 14], 'Just as the many were appalled at him - So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, His form, beyond human semblance-'

How is this explained? Is this talking about 'my servant Israel', the Jews?
Yes -- verses 11 and 12 describe how the nation will emerge in the future. Verse 13 then has God mention his servant, the group that is emerging. This group is considered by other groups to have a marred or inferior appearance (horns? big noses?), though another explanation is that the other nations are not commenting on physical appearance but on characteristics (bravery, the tendency to rule).
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
To me, the question arising from the commandments is, Can you [anyone] live the righteous life, and do as God commands? Why is it necessary to send an individual Messiah? Would the individual Messiah be necessary if the Law was adhered to by the corporate Messiah? In other words, Can the Law be adhered to without a change in Spirit?

IMO, this is Paul's theology. Paul had some issues and founded a theology to help him deal with his own issues. Unfortunately, Paul's theology went viral.
 
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