Sin and Repentance

[Spirit of Light]

God has sent no word. That is not how God operates. Holy books are stories. They are not creation's reality.

If Jesus Christ had the Word of God, why would he allow mankind to write that holy book? Why would God allow mankind to include and value so many petty things in that holy book? Your stories do not add up. Everything about God will add up.

God is working at a much Higher Level than the word of mankind.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

You forgetting that neither Jesus or his first disciples wrote it down it was oral tradition for a long time, when the Bible did get written down it had past many hundreds of years, and since Jesus was not on earth anymore he could not correct mankind when they did wrong.
And the Bible we have today has been altered even more by man, not by God or Jesus.

 

[Bird123]

You forgetting that neither Jesus or his first disciples wrote it down it was oral tradition for a long time, when the Bible did get written down it had past many hundreds of years, and since Jesus was not on earth anymore he could not correct mankind when they did wrong.
And the Bible we have today has been altered even more by man, not by God or Jesus.

Yes, indeed, you are right. This clearly does not reflect Intelligence. It's just more proof that the Bible does not come from God. Good call!!

God does not make moves that does not incorporate High Intelligence. On the other hand, mankind is a different story.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yes, indeed, you are right. This clearly does not reflect Intelligence. It's just more proof that the Bible does not come from God. Good call!!

God does not make moves that does not incorporate High Intelligence. On the other hand, mankind is a different story.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

That is not what I said, the gospels do come from God they was only written down to more easily remember.

But if you do not believe it's true, that is up to you.
Let those who do believe it do so.

 

[Bird123]

That is not what I said, the gospels do come from God they was only written down to more easily remember.

But if you do not believe it's true, that is up to you.
Let those who do believe it do so.

If the gospels do come from God, why didn't God simply implant the information at birth instead of set up a situation where that information could be altered? It does not add up. It is not Intelligent!!

As far as allowing others to believe as they will, I make no demands, no threats of any kind to anyone. As I have said many times. Be who you must! It's a part of the plan! You journey has never depended on me. On the other hand, I think it is important that truth be placed in the world so that it will be around for when it is ready to be Discovered by others.

In fact, if you look at God's actions, God merely places truth in the world. It waits to be discovered. This is about all kinds of knowledge not just about God. I merely copy God.

It has never been about ruling, controlling, believing,blaming, condemning, punishing or even good and evil. It's about the education of God's children. Yes, education at it's best: Discovering for yourself rather than simply being told.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Spirit of Light]

If the gospels do come from God, why didn't God simply implant the information at birth instead of set up a situation where that information could be altered? It does not add up. It is not Intelligent!!

As far as allowing others to believe as they will, I make no demands, no threats of any kind to anyone. As I have said many times. Be who you must! It's a part of the plan! You journey has never depended on me. On the other hand, I think it is important that truth be placed in the world so that it will be around for when it is ready to be Discovered by others.

In fact, if you look at God's actions, God merely places truth in the world. It waits to be discovered. This is about all kinds of knowledge not just about God. I merely copy God.

It has never been about ruling, controlling, believing,blaming, condemning, punishing or even good and evil. It's about the education of God's children. Yes, education at it's best: Discovering for yourself rather than simply being told.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

To gain access to a Gods knowledge human beings must cultivate their mind and through a spiritual teaching, only then can man know for sure Gods true intention.
God does not give humans everything without humans actually do their best to deserve the true teaching. That is the cultivation part of a spiritual life.
Only when you are ready the true wisdom arise from within the person who work hard to clean them self from immorality to gain good virtue

 

[Bird123]

To gain access to a Gods knowledge human beings must cultivate their mind and through a spiritual teaching, only then can man know for sure Gods true intention.
God does not give humans everything without humans actually do their best to deserve the true teaching. That is the cultivation part of a spiritual life.
Only when you are ready the true wisdom arise from within the person who work hard to clean them self from immorality to gain good virtue

Are you assuming that spiritual teaching you speak of actually knows God? I have found no religion that actually understands God.

Discover does take work. On the other hand, God hides nothing. No one is being restricted.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Spirit of Light]

Are you assuming that spiritual teaching you speak of actually knows God? I have found no religion that actually understands God.

Discover does take work. On the other hand, God hides nothing. No one is being restricted.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

The teaching in Christianity was explained by Jesus and Jesus had done the cultivation I spoke about, so Jesus knew Gos teaching yes.
The teaching is for the humans, not for God, God already know what is needed to know, and when say know it has nothing to do with mundane knowledge we "discover" as humans on earth.

 

[Redemptionsong]

God has sent no word. That is not how God operates. Holy books are stories. They are not creation's reality.

If Jesus Christ had the Word of God, why would he allow mankind to write that holy book? Why would God allow mankind to include and value so many petty things in that holy book? Your stories do not add up. Everything about God will add up.

God is working at a much Higher Level than the word of mankind.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

The foretelling of events is one of the hallmarks of God's word, and something that sets the Bible apart from other books.

There's an interesting case, in fact, where king Cyrus (founder of the Persian empire) was shown the prophecies of Isaiah to demonstrate that he was named in a prophecy (a prophecy made before Cyrus' birth). [Isaiah 45:1-4]

 

[Bird123]

The teaching in Christianity was explained by Jesus and Jesus had done the cultivation I spoke about, so Jesus knew Gos teaching yes.
The teaching is for the humans, not for God, God already know what is needed to know, and when say know it has nothing to do with mundane knowledge we "discover" as humans on earth.

How do you know Jesus knew God and knew what God wanted? You did not know Jesus. You admit the changes mankind had on your holy book yet you assume what they say about Jesus is the absolute truth. It doesn't add up.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Aupmanyav]

You already know God whether you know you know God or not. You will remember when you bump into God again.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Is not that a funny statement. I walk carefully, I do not bump into things.
Oh, you mean Emperor's new clothes!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I know 53. You said that the understanding as Israel would create a reading of certain verses. Which verses would create the reading you quoted?

Simply reading the passage silently or aloud and replacing every "Him" or "He" with "Israel" shows over a dozen self-contradictory verses.

 

[rosends]

Simply reading the passage silently or aloud and replacing every "Him" or "He" with "Israel" shows over a dozen self-contradictory verses.

and which ones were you quoting in your post?

 

[Bird123]

Is not that a funny statement. I walk carefully, I do not bump into things.
Oh, you mean Emperor's new clothes!

I realize you do not understand, however there will come a time when you will. How you walk has nothing to do with it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

How do you know Jesus knew God and knew what God wanted? You did not know Jesus. You admit the changes mankind had on your holy book yet you assume what they say about Jesus is the absolute truth. It doesn't add up.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Nothing I will tell you will have any meaning to you, so no need to continue answering your questions

 

[Aupmanyav]

I realize you do not understand, however there will come a time when you will. How you walk has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, unless they get their noses cut, they cannot see Emperor's new clothes. I have no such urge.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have found no religion that actually understands God.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!

How can they, when it is a fictitious, non-existent entity?
If you see, then you should realize the reason also.

The foretelling of events is one of the hallmarks of God's word, and something that sets the Bible apart from other books.

Bible God is the earlier version of Nostradamus? And Bible is like his "Les Prophéties"?

 

[BilliardsBall]

and which ones were you quoting in your post?

Israel is despised and rejected by men . . . And Israel hid, as it were, our faces from Israel (?!)
Israel was despised, and Israel did not esteem Israel (?!).
4 Surely Israel has borne our Israel's griefs (?!)
And Israel carried Israel's sorrows (?!) . . .
5 But Israel was wounded for Israel's transgressions (?!),
Israel was bruised for Israel's iniquities (?!);
The chastisement for Israel's peace was upon Israel (?!),
And by Israel's stripes Israel is healed (?!).
. . . For Israel was cut off from the land of the living (never happened, Jews have always been here);
For the transgressions of Israel people Israel was stricken (?!).
9 And they made Israel's grave with the wicked (when was that?)—
But with the rich at Israel's death (which rich people? when did Israel die?),
Because Israel had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in Israel's mouth (how can this be when the prophets say "If you judged us for our lies/iniquities"?).
...Because Israel poured out His soul unto death (when did Israel die?),
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[rosends]

Israel is despised and rejected by men . . . And Israel hid, as it were, our faces from Israel (?!)
Israel was despised, and Israel did not esteem Israel (?!).

First, try a better translation:

Israel was despised, shunned by men, A man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, Israel was despised, we held Israel of no account.

4 Surely Israel has borne our Israel's griefs (?!)
And Israel carried Israel's sorrows (?!) . . .
5 But Israel was wounded for Israel's transgressions (?!),
Israel was bruised for Israel's iniquities (?!);

Pay close attention:

Yet it was our sickness that Israel was bearing, Our suffering that Israel endured.

But Israel was wounded because of our sins, Crushed because of our iniquities. Israel bore the chastisement that made us whole, And by Israel's bruises we were healed.

Next, remember what your claim was "Replace "Him" in Isaiah 53 with "Israel" and you get bizarre statements like "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin"."

In the second quote, you replaced "our" with Israel in order to make a nonsensical statement. That is intellectually dishonest as it does not follow your claim. The line you then created in your initial claim, "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" is predicated on this falsehood.

Then you move into other directions, asking how the verses can be true (not anything about self-contradictions) because you don't see how they apply. These have been answered elsewhere and bear no connection to the false claim you made that I was responding to.

 

[BilliardsBall]

First, try a better translation:

Israel was despised, shunned by men, A man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, Israel was despised, we held Israel of no account.

Pay close attention:

Yet it was our sickness that Israel was bearing, Our suffering that Israel endured.

But Israel was wounded because of our sins, Crushed because of our iniquities. Israel bore the chastisement that made us whole, And by Israel's bruises we were healed.

Next, remember what your claim was "Replace "Him" in Isaiah 53 with "Israel" and you get bizarre statements like "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin"."

In the second quote, you replaced "our" with Israel in order to make a nonsensical statement. That is intellectually dishonest as it does not follow your claim. The line you then created in your initial claim, "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" is predicated on this falsehood.

Then you move into other directions, asking how the verses can be true (not anything about self-contradictions) because you don't see how they apply. These have been answered elsewhere and bear no connection to the false claim you made that I was responding to.

I will do 4 and 5 from Chabad without removing words. The silliness is evident, especially where Israel is both singular and plural in form:

4 Indeed, he [Israel] bore our [Israel's] illnesses, and our [Israel's] pains-he [Israel] carried them, yet we [Israel] accounted him [Israel] as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

5 But he [Israel] was pained because of our [Israel's] transgressions, crushed because of our [Israel's] iniquities; the chastisement of our [Israel's] welfare was upon him [Israel], and with his [Israel's] wound we [Israel] were healed.

This, however, is only part of the problem. You ducked where ISRAEL DIED AMONG SINNERS AND WAS WITH THE RICH IN ISRAEL'S DEATH, THEN COUNTED ISRAEL'S CHILDREN AFTER ISRAEL DIED.

Israel has never died. Israel isn't a MAN OF SORROWS. L'chaim is what we say, etc.!

Solemnly, I ask you again to reconsider whether Isaiah 53 is about a nation or Mashiach.

 

[rosends]

I will do 4 and 5 from Chabad without removing words. The silliness is evident, especially where Israel is both singular and plural in form:

4 Indeed, he [Israel] bore our [Israel's] illnesses, and our [Israel's] pains-he [Israel] carried them, yet we [Israel] accounted him [Israel] as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

Again, you go against your claim and replace "our" also. You wrote "Replace "Him" in Isaiah 53 with "Israel" and you get bizarre statements like "Israel took upon Israel Israel's sin" or "My people Israel rejected Israel when Israel died for Israel's sin"." But you also replaced "our" and "we" to create what makes no sense to you.

5 But he [Israel] was pained because of our [Israel's] transgressions, crushed because of our [Israel's] iniquities; the chastisement of our [Israel's] welfare was upon him [Israel], and with his [Israel's] wound we [Israel] were healed.

Same thing. Israel was pained because of OUR (the first person speaker, which is the kings who are the "we" of the direct quote "Who can believe what we have heard? Upon whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" Note the subject and the object -- this continues the narrative of the previous verse) transgressions, not Israel's. If you don't understand and can't follow rules that you, yourself set, then don't expect anything to make sense.

This, however, is only part of the problem. You ducked where ISRAEL DIED AMONG SINNERS AND WAS WITH THE RICH IN ISRAEL'S DEATH, THEN COUNTED ISRAEL'S CHILDREN AFTER ISRAEL DIED.

I didn't "duck" anything -- I pointed out how your claim is a lie and you manipulated text, and said that other issues belong on another thread. Of course, you could look at certain historical situations in which Jews, no matter how they lived among the rich, were killed and buried in inglorious places and ways. Your translation is really messed up. The plural "deaths" indicates that it refers to the deaths of individual Jews among the nation. Maybe try not misquoting and misstating the text and you will start to understand. Start with honesty and move from there to accuracy.