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Featured Sin and Repentance

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Does that mean it is wrong for one society to criticize another's view?
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I would say that you cannot do what is pleasing to God without his Spirit. Religion does not supply the Spirit, but Christ does [IMO]. This makes the Messiah unique amongst men.

    If there is one God, as I believe there is, then all men will be judged by the one God. Whether you believe in sin or not, you will be judged by God's standard of truth.
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    God, as an omnipotent Spirit, could forgive, but that would contradict the justice underpinning his original commandment to Adam, 'in the day that thou eatest thereof [from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil] thou shalt surely die'. He did eat, and the wages of sin is death. So who is going to pay the price? All the sons of Adam are under the same condemnation.

    God's forgiveness comes through a vicarious offering. As the scriptures say, the greatest thing a man can do is lay down his life for his friends [John 15:13]. Since the 'Lamb of God' proceeded from God, the offering is from God, not just from man. The type for this sacrifice is Abraham offering his 'only begotten son' Isaac. And where did that take place? Mount Moriah.
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    True, which is why Jesus isn't a viable prophet. Of course, I pointed out that prophecy had already been given to Jewish prophets, and, the entire nation at Sinai.

    but you asked "at what point have the Jews experienced this outpouring?" That's in the past tense and I answered historically. In the messianic days, when all Jews are brought back to Israel, well then, your objection will have been dismissed.
    So Jews never suffered IN Israel? Oh.


    Hoshea 6 talks about when the third temple is built, after the exile ends. People will return to God and he will refresh us like rain through justice and righteousness. These particular verses don't mention a messiah.
     
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  5. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    By that logic, if a grown man, with children and grandchildren were to commit a crime, then the same punishment visited on him must be visited on his children and their children, regardless of what they might have done or not done. And that is categorically NOT justice. (The Bible contradicts itself frequently on this point -- see Exodus 20:5-6; 34:6-7; Numbers 14:18 versus (Jeremiah 31:29; Ezekiel 18:2; Job 21:19)

    What real sense can be made out of a book that contradicts itself totally? Surely none, without having to make human-only guesses at what it all means, human-only guesses are bound to be wrong.
    As "The Lamb" that proceeded from God cannot die, but continues just the way it started, that can't be a realy sacrifice, now can it?
     
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  6. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    Dear Redemptionsong,

    In reply to a different thread I wrote (roughly) something I feel works here too:

    Every interaction has an indirect impact on others and on the world as we know it. Every interaction is therefore an opportunity to contribute constructively to the whole. But the will to see this and to consciously act upon it, is entirely up to ourselves.”

    Another’s wrongdoings onto us, can easily lead us to personally contribute negatively to our surroundings; spreading suffering and hatred wherever we go (also self harm/sabotage belongs here). To not do this, requires much self-assessment and hard work, but it is well-worth it, I think.

    Through understanding the impact (on selves and others) of the views and actions we choose to live by, we discover the power that we actually can have over the context of our own lives and realise that we really do have the means to say “I have been wronged and I have suffered but I refuse to pass your “sins” onto others. I take back any power I gave to your [actions] hold over me; the ‘buck’ [sin] stops here!”

    In my experience, this is often when true repentance and change occurs too (to truly repent, in my opinion, is to change).


    Humbly
    Hermit
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the input.

    In my opinion, God has a better perspective on the needs of the world than anyone on earth! God is the One who is best able to devise a plan of redemption and renewal. With this in mind, it strikes me that men and women should seek to understand and do God's will.

    The problem with doing things your own way is that even well intentioned actions can go seriously wrong. Huge sums of money intended to support the poor end up getting siphoned off by corrupt governments and individuals. At a personal level, long-term ministry for good takes a toll, and requires reserves of strength that only God, IMO, can supply. I think of Martin Luther King Jnr, who experienced very dark moments, and was only able to continue in his struggle because he found strength in God.

    What we do know about God is that he loves a person 'of a contrite and humble spirit'. [Isaiah 57:15]
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It might appear unfair on the children of Adam to be born in sin, but that does not prevent them from finding salvation. It places the onus on every individual to seek their own salvation.

    I don't see the contradictions in scripture that you see. I see only justice and grace.

    Certainly, it never ceases to amaze me that an innocent and sinless man should be prepared to lay down his life that I, a sinner and worm, might have life!
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Jews may have suffered in Israel, but that depended on their obedience to God. Just how much dishonouring does God have to put up with before He takes offence and punishes? The exile of Jews is a punishment, and a time of trial, not a blessing.

    The thing is, the Jewish nation only experiences 'salvation' and peace when they occupy their land and have the Messiah as their king. This, as you remark, is a future hope. It also means that the Holy Spirit has not yet been poured out on the Jewish nation.

    The logic of this is that the Spirit of God (experienced as 'rain' when the Messiah is present) has not been poured out upon the Jews in exile. Hosea 5:15 'I [God] will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early'.

    So, God leaves Ephraim and Judah. He does not remain amongst them. It is only when Ephraim and Judah repent in their affliction that they are able to say, 'for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up'.[Hosea 6:1]

    This doesn't sound to me like a people who are YET able to be an acceptable offering. They appear to have enough sins of their own! [Let's not overlook Isaiah 53:10, 'thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin']
     
  10. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    Forgive me Redemptionsong,

    I must confess that I am a little unclear on how your response here relates to the questions in your OP that I chose to address:
    a) what makes us aware of personal sin? and b) what does it mean to repent?


    Humbly
    Hermit
     
  11. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    Whenever someone says "most faiths" it strikes me how little studying they've done. Karma not sin is part of Hinduism, and it has several key differences which I wouldn't be able to adequately explain, except to say that Christians are different from Hindus in that they believe in an intermediary wiping the slate clean. With Hinduism, your karma carries from life to life meaning you don't even know what you did wrong in many cases.

    Taoism has very little to say about sin, and a lot to say with living in balance with nature. Wicca is okay with whatever, as long as it hurts nobody. Islam has sin, but not a clear-cut repentance model. Buddhism is about letting go of the physical world, and would probably tell you to avoid things that create distractions (don't put yourself in a position of feeling guilt in the first place). I'm not sure most religions do deal in sin and repentance.
     
  12. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    However, have you considered that since humans have been on this planet for a minimum of 100,000 years (and almost certainly more -- up to 300,000 -- but let''s leave it at 100,000), for this "salvation" to have been given just 2,000 years ago mean that for 98,000 years (98% percent, minimum,, more likely over 99%), humans were left to die without that salvation?
     
  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    IMHO, it is not wrong to point out if the other society has some lacuna or the other; for example, caste differences in Hinduism. That encourages the other society to improve. But castigating them will be wrong. Each society has its problems.
     
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  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    You believe, I don't. So, I am not afraid of YOUR sky daddy. I will not be there for God to judge me. I would have dissolved in the environment from which I arose, back to roots (four for Greeks and five elements for Hindus, Panca-tattva, as the theists say).

    I am not after pleasing any imaginary fictitious God or Allah; or fictitious prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / messiah / mahdi. If I do good, I do it for my society. Being a member of my society puts this obligation on me - 'Dharma' (fulfilling my duties and engaging in righteous action).
     
  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say it was. You said that certain things happened outside of Israel and now you accept that some happened inside. Instead of changing the topic, just accept the correction and move on.
    Your conclusion is yours. I have already shown you that the spirit alreadyt was poured on the nation as a whole. If you want to claim that the spirit is no longer on the people, then say that -- not that it never was.
    And in messianic days, Jews will be back in Israel, with the previously poured spirit. Great.
    OK, so that's great. Whether or not God remains among the people outside of Israel is a separate question (one which Judaism has text based answers for -- Vayigash 5773 - The Shechina In Galut! - TAL )
    Why do you mention "offering"? What does that have to do with anything.
    Well, I would prefer to look at 53:10 with a different word, not "offering" -- the Judaica Press uses "restitution." If you use the word "offering" then you start importing all the biblical ideas of the laws of sacrifices.

    The Artscroll translation has "soul would acknowldege guilt" while the Aramaic is "the obligation of his soul" (meichovin nafsheihon). Rashi explains

    "If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”"[/QUOTE]
     
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  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    But isn't improvement based on each society's subject definition of improvement?
     
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  17. Rise

    Rise Active Member

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    I would ask you then, how many other religions that are not rooted in Biblical Judaism (ie. Abrahamic Religions) can you point to that embody the concept of sin and repentance?

    That's why I said you'd have a hard time finding them.

    Because even if you did find a religion you thought seemed like it had those concepts, if you dug a little deeper you'd likely realize that there are significant enough differences that they can't be said to actually believe in the Biblical concept of sin and repentance.

    This shows you're confusing morality with sin.

    The existence of laws doesn't mean that culture believes in a concept similar to Biblical sin and repentance

    Sin is Biblically defined as that which goes against God's will. Going against God's will means not just overtly disobeying God, but also not being in line with the way God designed us to think, feel, and act. And God designed us to be like Him, so sin is essentially a failure to be like God in character as we were designed to.

    But not everyone who believes in the need for laws restricting certain behaviors would say they believe in that concept of sin.

    If you don't believe in an all powerful creator god then you can't by definition believe in a concept like Biblical sin.

    Obviously, not every religion or atheist believes those things - but they all generally believe in having laws to govern society. But they might not believe in having the same kinds of laws.

    If you don't believe that god demands you be like him, and failure to be like him is a problem, then you also can't by definition believe in a concept like Biblical sin.

    Because intrinsic to the definition of Biblical sin is the idea of where the law comes from and why it exists. Ie. The law comes from God, and is defined by God's character, and the law exists because we need to be like God in order to live eternally.

    You can't divorce those ideas from the concept of sin and still call it Biblical sin.


    Your statement takes certain things for granted which you cannot take for granted.

    You take for granted the idea that everyone already knows certain things are wrong and knows what the right alternative course of action is.

    However, we know historically and even today there are people who think it's ok to murder. Maybe they say the individual has to be of a certain religion, race, or ideology before they are fair game to murder. Maybe their belief system even says it's righteous to murder those people.

    So you cannot take for granted the things you have.

    You cannot even begin to talk about what's right and wrong without first talking about what worldview you're operating from.

    From a Biblical worldview, God's nature determines what is right from wrong. That which is in alignment is God is good, and that which is not is bad. The former leads to eternal life, the later to death.


    You can't define what repentance looks like without first defining what repentance is.

    Repentance is a change of course and mind - but a change of course and mind towards what direction?

    Change by itself isn't Biblical repentance. You need to change into the right direction.

    But you can't define what the right direction is without God.

    That's why you can't even talk about repentance without first mentioning what religion you're talking about. Because they won't all define what the right direction is the same way.


    Jesus said to hate someone is as though you had committed the sin of murder, from the perspective of God.

    You cannot Biblically repent of sin merely by obeying earthly laws.

    Your heart must change to hate what God hates and love what God loves.
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Yes, others may suggest, but it will be the society which will address it. It may not do what others have suggested, but do it their way. For example, arranged marriage in India. It is still there, but the difference is that the wishes of the boy and the girl are now taken into consideration. Previously, it was a dictat.
     
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  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    This is what 1 Peter 4:5,6 says: 'Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
    For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit'.

    So when did this preaching to the dead occur? Ephesians 4:9 says, '(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things).

    After crucifixion, the soul of Jesus descended into the grave. There He is made known to all that have died. Similarly, when he ascends to heaven, He is made known to all in heaven 'that he might fill all things'.
     
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Yes, sorry, Hermit. It didn't make much sense. I may have started to mix up my responses!
     
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