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Featured Sin and Repentance

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

    What makes a person aware of personal sin?

    What does it mean to 'repent'?

    Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?

    Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]

    Your thoughts, please. Thank you.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Sin is breaking G-d's law. For Noahides those laws are found in the Noahide Code.

    Ezekiel 18:20,

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    How you repent? That follows,

    But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

    The more formal repentance process involves apologising to anyone you wronged and confessing your guilt before G-d. Then you try not repeating the sin and actively trying to go in a better direction. To 'repent' really just means to turn around. To stop going the direction you're going and go in a better one.
     
    #2 Rival, Aug 27, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
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  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I'll be spending much time on this thread and, if you are interested, Judaism has a clear set of steps and expectations about repentance, but I just wanted to point out that if you start with a misunderstanding about Isaiah, you will come to mistaken conclusions.

    The text does not say that Israel (or anyone) died to save humanity from sin. It says that other nations will, in the future, recognize that they only had peace through their oppressing of Jews and that the Jews, by suffering the sinful actions of their oppressors helped keep the world at peace for those oppressors.

    I assume that you will choose to stick with your understanding of the chapter (though it isn't really a chapter, but a fluid continuation of an idea that begins verses earlier) so we will have little common ground to discuss.
     
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  4. Gargovic Malkav

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    I worship and believe in the One I see as the Source of Everything as a result of experience and faith. Label me as you see fit.
    Does this mean you believe that whenever Jews are going through a time of oppression and persecution, it is only because of the sin and/or ignorance of other nations, and not their own?
     
  5. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    One's conscience if one is in a relationship with God.

    A conversion, atonement, a healing of the relationship.

    The theology of redemption, which some believe the sole purpose of the Incarnation, to pay a ransom to a vengeful to God, really gives God a bad rap.

    Seems to me God gave us the path to salvation within the first three Commandments. Jesus continued with the 'greatest of these', love.
     
  6. chinu

    chinu Passenger

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    Do with others as what do you expect for yourself.

    Bearing sufferings.

    Yes.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    To me, the question arising from the commandments is, Can you [anyone] live the righteous life, and do as God commands? Why is it necessary to send an individual Messiah? Would the individual Messiah be necessary if the Law was adhered to by the corporate Messiah? In other words, Can the Law be adhered to without a change in Spirit?
     
    #7 Redemptionsong, Aug 27, 2020
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  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    How does Jesus bear the sins of others? Can he bear the sins of those who don't believe they have any sins? I hear it said, so-and-so 'is a good person'. Is anyone 'good'?
     
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    No Christian is without sin. They are born in sin. Jesus died for the sins of Christians. Either that is true or that some Christian has not sinned. Both things cannot be true.
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    So, if I'm correct, you live by seven laws:

    1. The Belief in G-d - Do not worship idols
    2. Respect G-d and Praise Him
    3. Respect Human Life - Do not Murder
    4. Respect the Family - Do not commit Immoral sexual acts
    5. Respect for other's rights and property - Do not Steal
    6. Creation of a Judicial System - Pursue Justice
    7. Respect all creatures - Do not eat the flesh of an animal that is still alive

    Do you think that by trying to do these things you are pleasing God? It is enough? Is there any point in having a Messiah?
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    These are actually classed as 'categories' of laws and there are up to 30.

    Yes, sticking to these is pleasing to G-d. Why make more rules and increase the chances of people sinning? Or why would He make rules at all if people following them weren't pleasing to Him? He's pretty serious about people following the rules as we see from the prophets.

    What does this have to do with the Messiah? The only person who can repent of your sin is you.
     
    #11 Rival, Aug 27, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Here's what Aish.com has to say about the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53:
    'Christianity claims that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus, as the 'suffering servant'.

    In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ('Israel') are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the 'Servant of God' (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the servant of God is Israel.

    When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being 'bruised, crushed and as sheep brought for the slaughter' at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

    Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognise and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews'.

    Do you agree with this interpretation?
     
  13. chinu

    chinu Passenger

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    Firstly, I also believe that Jesus was capable of bearing sins only when "He" was in body. Dead doctor cannot treat a patient.

    Secondly, when an individual is in front of a real punishment. That time, important is how to get rid of that punishment, rather than to prove what an individual believe in, or believe in not. :)
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Then what is the point of having an individual Messiah if you can do everything without Him?
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What reason do you have for believing that you will not be punished for your sin?
     
  16. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I've been through with you what the Messiah is meant to do on other threads, so I'm not repeating it here.
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Did Jesus only die for the sins of Christians? Surely he died before people even became Christians.
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I'm not looking for a list of world peace references. I'm asking why it's necessary to have a Messiah at all. You seem to know what God wants you to do, so surely it's just a matter of doing it!
     
  19. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    You're free to derail your own thread about 'Sin and Repentance' by bringing the Messiah into it, but that's not the discussion I'm having.
     
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  20. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    He died for all those who would become Christians in the times to come. He certainly did not die for me, a non-believer and a pagan, because I can manage my merits and sins myself.
     
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