chinu
chinu
Yes, if I have No way.
But, I have the way stopping the sin.
One has the free will to sin, but, bound to get the punishment.
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Sin and Repentance
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
But, I have the way stopping the sin.
One has the free will to sin, but, bound to get the punishment.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
With respect, this is not just Paul's theology. Paul speaks what is revealed, and it's a revelation that has the backing of Christ, according to the Gospels. You may not accept the Gospels, but it is consistent with everything Jesus taught.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
If you have the freedom not to sin, why are you still bound by sin?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Well, clearly you are in disagreement with the commentators of the JPS, who clearly believe that the text refers to an individual person.
rosends
Well-Known Member
If that's what you take from the JPS notes, then so be it. You might want to read the rest of that side note. I can't get the entire page for you but it is available online
I hope you see that the side note presents a variety of opinions. Note also its clear religious position regarding authorship.
That is a matter of faith and belief which you choose to have. If you are not willing to question the truth of what you believe you are going to be stuck with these conundrums.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Fair point. I accept that Jewish scholars are divided over whether this passage refers to an individual or to the nation as a whole.
The problem I have with interpreting Isaiah 53 as referring to the nation is that to do so one has to assume that Jews already have the Spirit of God upon them. Joel 2:28-32 ( JPS 3:1,2) tells us that God will pour out his spirit 'upon all flesh'. God's spirit is none other than the Holy Spirit, so at what point have the Jews experienced this outpouring?
The individual Messiah has the Spirit upon him (Isaiah 42:1) but there is no indication that Jews have yet received this outpouring, unless you accept Pentecost (Acts 2).
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
It's not just blind faith! The reasoning exists as well, based on the scriptures. I'm very happy to present the texts that show that Christ came to baptise with the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit was not sent until after Jesus had ascended to heaven. Jesus was a mediator of the new covenant. He was not present on earth when the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles and other disciples.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Joel seems to be talking about a future event in which ALL flesh, that is, even those who are NOT Jews will have God's spirit (which seems in line with the messianic prophecy that in those days, all nations will recognize God - Zech 14:9). Notice that in the verse before, God just said that people will recognize that "I am in the midst of Israel" and you wonder when God's spirit was upon Israel? The evidence of God's spirit is prophecy, but there has already been rampant prophecy among the Jews (at Sinai all Jews had the vision of God's appearance, whether or not they had been born yet). Look at what Joel 4:1 and 2 say -- one verse about Judah and Jerusalem and then a contrasting one about all nations.
I don't read "Acts" so whatever that text says it meaningless to me.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
Read John 3:16. It isn't about that you have to choose who die for you or live for you. I'm also ready to die for you, if someone try to kill you, if I am next to you. Why? Because Christians are servant of God. We are not fighting against flesh and bone, but against evil spirits. Ephesians 6
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Sin and repentance are of no concern to God. These are issues of mankind. God only cares about the Learning.
Though our free choices, each chooses the lessons they want to learn. When one understands all sides, intelligence will make the Best choices.
Do you see the Genius in this? There is no need to define good or evil since in the end everyone will make the Best choices. Further, this eliminates wrath, anger,blaming,condemning, punishing, controlling and hating, leaving the door open to only Unconditional Love.
Think about it. A Being capable of creating universes has to be operating at a much Higher Level than mankind, mankind's stories, and all those petty things mankind holds so dear.
Indeed, Intelligence exists far beyond mankind.
Of course, if you like all those petty things, then clearly there are more lessons to learn.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
I do not wish to address all your questions, but this one is something I think is important.
No, nobody, no possible way, can bear the sins of anybody else. Even the Bible makes this clear (though muddies it, as usual, in other texts).
But the most important thing about this idea of Christ as sacrificial lamb for the atonement of sins is this: It seems to render God as other than omnipotent -- it says, "I, God, cannot actually forgive unless I get a scapegoat, a sacrifice -- just saying 'sorry' isn't good enough."
That seems pretty pathetic, to me. I can forgive with nothing more than a sincere apology -- or even without one, when I've understand that what caused someone to hurt me might have been outside of their control. In that respect, I count myself as much more forgiving than the God of the Bible.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Well, I am past my sinning age, already left them behind.
Not as important as you might think.
"Sin" and "repentance" are both Biblical words with Biblical meanings.
You'd have a hard time finding a religion not based in the Bible that conveyed similar concepts.
Since "sin" is a Biblical word, the only real reference point we can use for answering your question is the Bible.
There appears to be more than one way:
1. You are told it is sin by someone who is commissioned and empowered to speak on behalf of God (A prophet, an angel, or God Himself speaking to you). You are now accountable to act based on the knowledge you've been given.
Written words of those sources are also just as authoritative (Luke 16):
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
...
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
2. Your conscience convicts you of sin even if you haven't heard teaching from a Godly authoritative source telling you so. You are then accountable for the conviction you chose to ignore and judged accordingly.
Romans 2:
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
That's an easy one to answer from the Bible.
Repentance means to realize what you were doing was wrong and then to stop doing it. It's a two step process. The realization and the change in behavior.
That conclusion is born out of both a study of the Hebrew and Greek words behind "repentance" as well as a contextual study of how the word is used and what is said or implied to be required of those who are told to repent.
You have given us no reason to not believe it is possible.
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
-John 1
Isaiah 53 is plainly referring to a singular individual, not a people group.
The lamb that was slaughtered as part of the passover had to be without spot or blemish (Exodus 12:5).
Have the Jewish people ever been without spot or blemish (ie. sinless?). No.
In Romans 3 we see that no one is without sin. Even the Jews who followed the law.
John the Baptist was said by Jesus to be the greatest among men, yet John said he needed to be baptized by Jesus.
We then see in Revelation 5 that only one was found worthy - The lamb who was slain.
Revelation 5:
Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Take care, Christians are still killing aboriginal people of the Amazon basin. Do not cite John or Ephasians.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
No, they are not Christians. Christians fights is not with humans. Read Ephesians 6:10-18.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
According to the Jewish perspective, prophecy stopped with Malachi.
When Israel lived in the land and were prosperous, Ephraim and Judah were mostly doing as God wished under the law, but the exiles and diaspora are proof of their backsliding. With regard to the last two thousand years, Hosea makes God's feelings clear (Hosea 5) and the actions he would take in consequence. So, God is not in the midst of Israel when lsrael are not in their land.
The sufferings of Israel, particularly during the diaspora, have not occurred whilst the Spirit of God has been upon Israel. God turned his face for a reason.
To my understanding, God is bringing Jews back to lsrael because, once again, they are seeking His face. This is indicated in Hosea 6:1-3.
Who is the face and countenance of God, if not the Messiah? And who is the Messiah if not the righteousness of God?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
If sin was not an issue for God then He would not have enquired of Adam after the 'fall', 'Where art thou?'. The close spiritual bond between God and men had been broken, and needed to be restored.
How can this not be God's concern?
Repentance is one of the requirements for normalizing spiritual relationships.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I agree with much of your post barring the opening section.
It seems to me that sin and repentance are universally understood to mean, firstly the breaking of law, and, secondly, the turning from one's own path to the path of truth (as revealed through your faith).
For example, one might have the law that states, Thou shalt not commit murder, as is common to many faiths. Recognition of sin would be to admit wrong doing as a murderer, and repentance would involve changing the direction of one's life so as to become 'life affirming' (if a second opportunity at life is not cut short by justice and death).
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Merit and sin are not the guidelines given by any God or Allah. They belong to society. Different societies have differences on how they view merit and sin. This is a 'carrot and sword' policy of the society and does not concern any God or Allah. Do good things and you will go to heaven, do evil things and you will have to suffer in hell. Have the propagators of different religions said anything new or other than that?
Read it. Word Salad.