Altfish
Veteran Member
Well that sounds better than 'living' with the boring obnoxious people for the rest of eternity.I hate to disappoint you but there is no such place as hell....all you will get is a boring sleep that never ends.
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Well that sounds better than 'living' with the boring obnoxious people for the rest of eternity.I hate to disappoint you but there is no such place as hell....all you will get is a boring sleep that never ends.
Go can do it better than I can.
Rev 21:3-4 - And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying "Behold, the Tabernacale of God(Jesus) is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them." and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death, there will no longer be any mourning, or crying or pain; the first things have passed away."
Rev 22:1-2 - Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of god and the Lamb, in the middle of it s street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing 12 kinds of fruit, lit fruit every month; and the leaves were for the healing of the nations.
Micah 4:3b - ...The will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift up sword against nation and never again will they train for war. Each of them will sit under his vine and under his fig tree, with no one to make the afraid.
So you base it on their simple say-so. But what do Roman Catholics and Anglicans base it on?Christians Including Roman Catholics and Anglicans, to name but two denominations, believe that God is outside time and not constrained by it
But doesn't everyone on earth today live in a different "time frame," whatever that is, than god? So why isn't it possible that heaven too could also exist in a different time frame than god?It would be complicated indeed, If heaven were any different, and that God, souls of the departed and Heaven all existed in different time frames.
Not as much as it would coming from a legitimately accredited institution. Accreditation means that a school has met minimum educational requirements, and without a reputable accreditation there's no way of telling this.Actually, religious institutions are not subject to the same government oversight as secular universities because of the 1st Amendment. Religious degrees are used within the Church, and thus relevant to the line of work they are geared for. You are right in that it does not mean much outside of the Church or religious affiliations, but since this is Religious Forums, my degree and the title it confers is relevant, just as it is relevant in my capacity as a police chaplain.
Come now, let's not be attacking the monster before it even growls. Actually, although Bethany is a very small brick and mortar operation (only five small buildings), it's online courses don't appear to be bad at all, although, lacking legitimately accreditation it's impossible to judge how extensive or challenging the courses are.None of that changes the fact that I spent ~8 years going through the courses, doing the research, writing the papers, doing the thesis and dissertation and EARNING a Th.D. That is something that you can't take away from me, no matter how much you try and downplay it, mock it or brush it off. I fully expected you to try and attack my seminary and discredit it. That is the typical tactic of someone that has no real ground to stand on.
Yet Bethany still advertises its accreditation by AAHEA. Hardly a virtuous thing to do especially by an organization one expects to be above such a thing.For the record, Bethany became aware of the shady nature of AAHEA (it used to be legit and based out of D.C.) and is now working to attain accreditation through SACS. They are not the only school to be duped by scam artists.
Well, certainly not all of us, but consider what I posted to you in post 19.Having said all of that, let's get back to the OP, shall we? Please tell me where the Bible states that we go to heaven when we die. Name the chapter/verse.
How do you access those Emojis?
I've just tried to access those sophisticated ones, and failed.
Obviously they're miraculous ones not available to Deists, or Bahais!
And mine.....
Threre was this brilliant Smilie, roaring with laughter and banging fist on (imaginary) table in hilarity. I loved it, and sadly it is nowhere to be found now.
Not as much as it would coming from a legitimately accredited institution. Accreditation means that a school has met minimum SECULAR educational requirements, and without a reputable accreditation there's no way of telling this.
Come now, let's not be attacking the monster before it even growls. Actually, although Bethany is a very small brick and mortar operation (only five small buildings), it's online courses don't appear to be bad at all, although, lacking legitimately accreditation it's impossible to judge how extensive or challenging the courses are.
Yet Bethany still advertises its accreditation by AAHEA. Hardly a virtuous thing to do especially by an organization one expects to be above such a thing.
Well, certainly not all of us, but consider what I posted to adrianhindes in post 19.
Just the verse from Matthew 5:20 alone, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." strongly implies that heaven is the destination for qualified souls. If it wasn't, the verse wouldn't make any sense.Matthew 5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
2 Peter 3:13
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Kings 2:11
And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
ESV / 22 helpful votes
Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
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Yes, I know that feelingSorry about that. I am in 3 forums and they all have different ways to quote. At times I revert to the one I have been in the longest.
John 3:13
"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
That means no one, including Jesus has ascended into heaven without the help of God.
Job was expressing his hope of the resurrection, one very dear to him because of the loss of all his children. He asked to go to sheol for relief from his suffering, but expressed his faith that he would live again.IMO those verse are an allegory. When man dies he can't get up from where he is---Sheol. Look at verse 15; can the dead call to God?
So you base it on their simple say-so. But what do Roman Catholics and Anglicans base it on?
But doesn't everyone on earth today live in a different "time frame," whatever that is, than god? So why isn't it possible that heaven too could also exist in a different time frame than god?
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Well that sounds better than 'living' with the boring obnoxious people for the rest of eternity.
Abdu'l-Baha, the son of the Baha'u'llah, who Baha'is see as being the perfect example of His Father's teachings said that when two people argue about religion they are both wrong.
I have a great life, I love my family and have lots of friends. I try my best to do no harm and treat others with respect.God doesn't force people to live....I guess that can be a relief to those who find no joy in the prospect of living a righteous life with others who love what is good and hate what is bad.
And I'm not suggesting it is your fault, but at least one of the Bethany poobahs has to be aware of it. It stands out like a red flag on their accreditation page.Not my fault the webmaster hasn't updated the site.
Then what was your point in asking me? I already told you why I conclude the Bible says people go to heaven way back in post 19. And obviously it isn't based on some verse that explicitly says "people go to heaven."In other words, there's not a verse that actually says it. Thanks, all I needed to hear to confirm what I and other theologians already know.
Not a thing. Hallucinatory visions don't interest me. However, if you put any stock in them you might want to take a look at Revelation 19:1Now, what do you do about Revelation 20-21?
No one has escaped from Heaven to tell us what a hard existence awaits us.
But time does not exist there, so neither do days, boring or otherwise.
Yes, to me, angels are in heaven because of being created as spirit creation.two were in heaven and the angels are in heaven. John is greater than any of them.
omega2xx said:Deeje said:King David did not go to heaven.
Acts 2:32-35:
"God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.
34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet"
Those verse are about Jesus going to heaven. That does not meant David did not go there as well. All who did before the resurrection went to Sheol, which is divided into 2 parts. When Jesus was resurrected, the Paradise side of Sheol was emptied,---Mat 27:52-53.
Sheol is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "hades" according to the Septuagint.
Solomon said that there is no conscious activity in the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)
Why use the LXX when you have the Bible? It says the dead do know know anything. They don't know any wisdom
There is no reason to take Lazarus and the rich man as a parable. Jesus went to the Paraise side of Sheol with the thief. There He preached to those in torments, prison(I Pet 3:19). Then both went on to heaven.The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, with symbolic characters, not real ones. And the evildoer hung alongside Jesus was promised "paradise" not heaven. Jesus did not go to heaven that day, so he couldn't have promised that to the thief.
Did you not read v29---This is the world of God that you BELIEVE in the One whom HE has sent. The thief BELIEVED who Jesus was and that saved him.This man was not a Christian but acknowledged Jesus as King of God's kingdom...that might earn him a place among the righteous come resurrection time. (John 5:28, 29)
I am probably right up there with you in 'fogieness',Unless you are an older fogie than I am, it is more likely I have studied the Bible more than you have. That doe snot mean I am always right,but I have done my homework for 40+ years. No one is always right.
Then what was your point in asking me? I already told you why I conclude the Bible says people go to heaven way back in post 19. And obviously it isn't based on some verse that explicitly says "people go to heaven."
That is beautiful. What do you do there, though? I love going out in nature. I love art. That's my out. These things are also my heaven. It doesn't need to be "divine" and "spiritual" but to me, it is. I can describe it. Many artists of different fields can describe it from poetry (as in what many parts of revelation is) and I write poetry, so I understand that... to black and white art and sculpting. I can explain these things in beautiful words and to talk in an place of nature with art would be heaven to me. Yet, how can I describe it without using poetic words, metaphors, and fancy language?
Maybe the best thing to say is, "I don't know."
So when jesus comes to whipe your tears, is he doing this literally? There are so many people. Then when you are all tearless and worry free, what do you do while you are looking at crystals and sinking in rivers? Are they real rivers?
I mean, rivers, crystals, gold, colored jewels (all in Rev. I read it), gold walk ways, et cetera are all earthly things. So, it goes beyond what we have on earth. How do you describe heaven? Is it a feeling? Thoughts?
How do you describe it without earthly terms like what it looks like-jewels, gold, crystals, rivers-and so forth; and how do you describe it without using the human psyche-thoughts, feelings, emotions, things that are part of the body/flesh (in christian view)?
Is there a way to describe heaven without these things?
Without worry... that's like taking out reality for a dream. Everything is based on cause and affect. What we do will always cause some stress positive and/or negative. Spiritual world is no exception.
How can it be, or is heaven described as an desire?
Can you imagine all the boring people that will have made it to heaven? All the people that in real life you avoid like the plague. Pious, righteous, busy bodies who don't drink, don't swear, don't have dirty thoughts. Aaaaargh!
I want to be with the bad boys and girls. Give me Christopher Hitchens, George Best, Lemmy, Jerry Garcia, Janice Joplin, etc.
Instead I'm stuck with Mother Teresa, Jerry Fulwell, Mary Whitehouse and the likes.
No Hell seems a much better option
Most christians believe heaven is where God is, are you now suggesting he is elsewhere or should that be else when?
Jesus, and those called to heaven - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 2:10 - will govern with Christ for a thousand years over Earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom government.
Those resurrected to heaven have two (2) jobs to do according to Revelation 5:9-10