* sigh* Just Another Day In Heaven

[Dawnofhope]

There should NOT be any disagreement between religion and science, but when both have gone off on opposite tangents, I can see that both are promoting errors. There is somewhere in the middle where God, science and creation meet agreeably.

Now we are starting to talk the same language and its nice to read something that sounds like there is sincere, thinking, compassionate person posting, so thank you for that.

Abdu'l-Baha, the son of the Baha'u'llah, who Baha'is see as being the perfect example of His Father's teachings said that when two people argue about religion they are both wrong. So this is very civilised and once again thank you cousin.

As Jesus talked about removing the log from our own eye before removing the speck from our brother's, Abdu'l-Baha taught that if a man has 10 good qualities, and one bad, look at the good. If he has one good quality, and 10 bad, look at the one good quality.

The heart of the Baha'i Faith, as it is for Christianity, is love God with all your being and love all humanity. Of course as you will know Jesus was simply echoing what Moses had said as recorded in Deuteronomy when replying to the question as to the greatest commandment.

I like to ask questions and you seem to enjoy answering so here is another. Do you consider the Garden of Eden story was a real or figurative?

 

[Deeje]

Mathew 13:24-30 captures beautifully this truth :

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

One interpretation is that the weeds are the religious dogmas and doctrines that have had their day.

If you read on, Jesus interprets the parable for his disciples....

"Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen." (Matthew 13:36-43)

The wheat, (sons of the kingdom) were sown by "the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) The weeds, sown by the devil, are fake Christians, (sons of the wicked one). These are the ones who claim Jesus as their Lord at the judgment, but are rejected by Jesus as those he has never even known. (Matthew 7:21-23)
The plant referred to in the parable is thought to be Bearded Darnell.
It is a weed, and the bane of middle eastern farmers, because if it sprouts in a wheat field, it is almost impossible to tell it apart from the wheat in its early growing stages. Only at the harvest time do the two present differently. The weeds stand straight up, where as the wheat ears bend over. This fits with the illustration because the reapers are sent only at the harvest time to collect the weeds and eradicate them.

 

[Deeje]

Now we are starting to talk the same language and its nice to read something that sounds like there is sincere, thinking, compassionate person posting, so thank you for that.

Abdu'l-Baha, the son of the Baha'u'llah, who Baha'is see as being the perfect example of His Father's teachings said that when two people argue about religion they are both wrong. So this is very civilised and once again thank you cousin.

As Jesus talked about removing the log from our own eye before removing the speck from our brother's, Abdu'l-Baha taught that if a man has 10 good qualities, and one bad, look at the good. If he has one good quality, and 10 bad, look at the one good quality.

The heart of the Baha'i Faith, as it is for Christianity, is love God with all your being and love all humanity. Of course as you will know Jesus was simply echoing what Moses had said as recorded in Deuteronomy when replying to the question as to the greatest commandment.

Jesus upheld his Father's word on every occasion. He himself expressed love for his Father, just as the father expressed love for his son.
His whole life course, including his death, was an act of love. (John 3:16)

I like to ask questions and you seem to enjoy answering so here is another. Do you consider the Garden of Eden story was a real or figurative?

Since Jesus referred to the original pair and the marriage that God performed, uniting them as man and wife, he said "what God has yoked together, let no man out apart."

I do not have reason to believe that the story is anything but real. Though there is much figurative language used in the Bible, the whole creation account can be reconciled with ID, literally, with no problem at all in our view.

Do Baha'is believe in the devil?

 

[Dawnofhope]

and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness

One of those things being faulty man made dogmas and doctrines, not the True Teachings of God.

This is where Christianity has strayed and why you were spiritually starved.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Do Baha'is believe in the devil?

No, not literally.

"This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan - the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside." Baha'i writings

How about JWs?

Baha'i believe that although Adam existed the story is figurative and not to be taken literally.

We don't believe in the doctrine of original sin either.

 

[oldbadger]

I have a (non-JW) member of my family who is into proving that the miracles in the Bible were just natural phenomena.

Regardless of the reason why something happened, the law of cause and effect means that something had to cause it.
I don't see why that 'something' couldn't have been God. If he had the power to create the Universe, then parting a small body of water would have been no trouble at all.

That's how I would expect my JW friends to answer.

But in my experience most things that God does are strictly within the boundaries of the natural sciences like biology, physics etc, and so my HAT + Storm = Tidal Bore together with Slaves' personal knowledge could be the one that did it.

God doesn't just snap fingers and 'presto' miracle, methinks. Look at Jesus. God didn't just snap Himself into a human body walking along the Capernaum shoreline calling unknown fishers to his mission. He could have, if you are correct, but he did not.

Of course, G-John, not content with demon casting, charismatic-stunning, body manipulation and all other sorts of healing, John wanted dead people raised up, this written 80-90 years after Jesus's death.

I believe in the miracles of life, existence and nature which is why I am a Deist, but sometimes, just sometimes, my hard studies have been known to please even the Faithful.

 

[Dawnofhope]

His whole life course, including his death, was an act of love. (John 3:16)

Agreed. On an even more profound note...... How do you access those Emojis?

You realise any right minded person reading this will think we've both gone mad!

 

[Deeje]

One of those things being faulty man made dogmas and doctrines, not the True Teachings of God.

This is where Christianity has strayed and why you were spiritually starved.

I agree, but it was humans who adopted these man made dogmas and it was satan who influenced them.

No, not literally.

"This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan - the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside." Baha'i writings

How about JWs?

Since we believe that Jesus was a real person...a sinless son of God who had encounters with the devil, we don't see how a sinless man could have an evil ego within him? This evil influence was outside of this perfect man.

Baha'i believe that although Adam existed the story is figurative and not to be taken literally.

We don't believe in the doctrine of original sin either.

Original sin to us is inherited imperfection linked to Adam's disobedience. (Romans 5:12) When God told Adam he would die, it was because of sin....sin causes death.

Anyhow, I would like to pursue this conversation tomorrow, as it is fascinating to learn about your faith. I can't say that I have ever encountered a Baha'i believer in our ministry work, so this is enlightening for me to explore the beliefs you have and why you hold them.

Its time to hit the sack here in OZ, so I will bid you good night and hope to continue the conversation some time tomorrow.

All the best till then....

 

[Deeje]

Agreed. On an even more profound note...... How do you access those Emojis?

You realise any right minded person reading this will think we've both gone mad!

 

[Dawnofhope]

But in my experience most things that God does are strictly within the boundaries of the natural sciences like biology, physics etc, and so my HAT + Storm = Tidal Bore together with Slaves' personal knowledge could be the one that did it.

God doesn't just snap fingers and 'presto' miracle, methinks. Look at Jesus. God didn't just snap Himself into a human body walking along the Capernaum shoreline calling unknown fishers to his mission. He could have, if you are correct, but he did not.

This is really similar to how Baha'is view it. Although God is All-powerful He rarely uses that power. We should try to see the spiritual significance of the miracles and the stories, rather than assuming they are literal historic accounts. Miracles are really only proofs for those that witness them.

 

[oldbadger]

Agreed. On an even more profound note...... How do you access those Emojis?

I've just tried to access those sophisticated ones, and failed.
Obviously they're miraculous ones not available to Deists, or Bahais!

 

[oldbadger]

This is really similar to how Baha'is view it. Although God is All-powerful He rarely uses that power. We should try to see the spiritual significance of the miracles and the stories, rather than assuming they are literal historic accounts. Miracles are really only proofs for those that witness them.

Yep.
If I was to think of a 'God snaps fingers and boom' super miracle I would just imagine the Big Bang initiating from a pin prick of energy. That does it for me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I've just tried to access those sophisticated ones, and failed.
Obviously they're miraculous ones not available to Deists, or Bahais!

A definite proof of the inadequacy of my religion for sure

 

[oldbadger]

A definite proof of the inadequacy of my religion for sure

And mine.....
Threre was this brilliant Smilie, roaring with laughter and banging fist on (imaginary) table in hilarity. I loved it, and sadly it is nowhere to be found now.

 

[omega2xx]

What is wrong with that? I was born, I live, I age, and I pass on in spirit to help my family through the same. They did this before. They do this now. I repay the favor and hopefully in this life as well.

I've gone through brain surgery, the worse kinds of seizures I wouldn't wish on any person, I've gone through trauma, and a form of PTSD that's still wearing off and chronic depression that doesn't want to fall off my tail from years ago.

I know stress; but, I never wished for a heaven. I don't even know where to start to think of something very "silly" and unrealistic as that. However, I'm always fascinated in a good way of people who do have that idea. My family has it too but I wouldn't ask them directly. They just "want me to come back to Christ."

I never felt anything wrong with not wanting a 100 percent stress free life because what I do for myself, for others, and for my environment makes up for the stress I experience on a daily basis. I enjoy it in it's tips and falls while I am here. I don't understand why the future is so more important than the present.



How can you have no stress if you have a body in heaven?
What do you do in heaven that makes heaven, heaven?
Are you just walking around and visiting loved ones?
In a state of prostrated prayer for eternity?

What is your idea of actual heaven? We know you feel there is no worries. How do you know this? Describe heaven.


Then is it heaven or is heaven dependent on the human's wants to be worry free?

Go can do it better than I can.

Rev 21:3-4 - And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying "Behold, the Tabernacale of God(Jesus) is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them." and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death, there will no longer be any mourning, or crying or pain; the first things have passed away."

Rev 22:1-2 - Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of god and the Lamb, in the middle of it s street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing 12 kinds of fruit, lit fruit every month; and the leaves were for the healing of the nations.

Micah 4:3b - ...The will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift up sword against nation and never again will they train for war. Each of them will sit under his vine and under his fig tree, with no one to make the afraid.

 

[omega2xx]

Everyone who died before the resurrection went to Sheol. Sheol is divided into to parts---paradise and torments. Lazarus went to paradise, wher the otghe Lazarus was and where the thief on the cross who believed who Jesus was.
Where did Jesus say David was? (Acts 2:34-35) What about John the Baptist who died before Jesus?
Matthew 11:11:
"Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."
How could that be if John is also in the Kingdom of the heavens?

two were in heaven and the angels are in heaven. John is greater than any of them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, to me, angels are in heaven because of being created as spirit creation.
David did Not ascend - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 - and John the Baptizer is also Not in heaven - Matthew 11:11
that is because No one on Earth was called to heavenly life before Jesus died - John 3:13

What Scripture teaches Enoch or Elijah were resurrected to heaven:
Enoch was taken by God - Genesis 5:24 - but taken does Not have to mean resurrected.
God simply disposed of Enoch's body as in the case of Moses - Hebrews 11:5; Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Jude 1:9
None of the people mentioned at Hebrews 11 were resurrected - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' because physical resurrections will take place in the future millennium time of Jesus governing over earth for a thousand years.

Elijah taken in the windstorm - 2 Kings 2:11 - Not to the dwelling home of God, but into the mid-heavens where the birds fly. Our physical atmospheric heavens where Elijah was transferred from one place to another by the wind.
Elijah was still alive on Earth at least 5 years later because living Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram according to 2 Chronicles 21:1,12-15.

Jesus taught the dead are in a sleep-like state according to John 11:12-14
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach un-conscious sleep in death:



- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, Enoch and Elijah are still asleep in the grave as is King David and John the Baptizer.
Those called to heaven start with the new covenant including those of Luke 22:28-30, and Not those who lived and died before Jesus died.[/QUOTE]

Your problem is Your don't understand the Scriptures you quote.

Acts 2:34-5 is not about Davis, it is about Jesus
Mt 11:11 is not about when anyone is.

Jn 3:13 means no one has ascended into heaven without the help of God.

Enoch and Elijah were not resurrected. They were taken alive.

2 Ki 2:11b - ...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind to HEAVEN.
Enoch wss taken UP. That means to heaven, not to Sheol.

Those in Sheol are not dead as the story of Lazarus and the rich man clearly teach.

It is usually the SDA who push "soul sleep." Did I guess right?

 

[omega2xx]

It might be good if you could master the quoting system here.....it makes replying that much easier....

Sorry about that. I am in 3 forums and they all have different ways to quote. At times I revert to the one I have been in the longest.

Neither Enoch nor Elijah went to heaven....or else the apostle John is a liar.
John 3:13:
"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

That means no one, including Jesdus has ascended inot heaven without the help of God.

The Jews had no belief in going to heaven. They believed that the dead would "sleep" and await an earthly resurrection. Even Job, who lived before Israel became a nation, believed in a resurrection.

Job 14:12-15:
"Man also lies down and does not get up.
Until heaven is no more, they will not wake up,
Nor will they be aroused from their sleep.
13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me,
That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!
14 If a man dies, can he live again?
I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.
15 You will call, and I will answer you.
You will long for the work of your hands."

IMO those verse are an allegory. When man dies he can't get up from where he is---Sheol. Look at verse 15; can the dead call to God?

King David did not go to heaven.

Acts 2:32-35:
"God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.
34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet"

Those verse are about Jesus going to heaven. That does not meant David did not go there as well. All who did before the resurrection went to Sheol, which is divided into 2 parts. When Jesus was resurrected, the Paradise side of Sheol was emptied,---Mat 27:52-53.

Sheol is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "hades" according to the Septuagint.
Solomon said that there is no conscious activity in the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

Why use the LXX when you have the Bible? It says the dead do know know anything. They don't know any wisdom

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, with symbolic characters, not real ones. And the evildoer hung alongside Jesus was promised "paradise" not heaven. Jesus did not go to heaven that day, so he couldn't have promised that to the thief.

There is no reason to take Lazarus and the rich man as a parable. Jesus went to the Paraise side of Sheol with the thief. There He preached to thsoe in torments, prison(I Pet 3:19). Then both went on to heaven.

This man was not a Christian but acknowledged Jesus as King of God's kingdom...that might earn him a place among the righteous come resurrection time. (John 5:28, 29)

Did you not read v29---This is the world of God that you BELIEVE in the One whom HE has sent. The thief BELIEVED who Jesus was and that saved him.

Seriously.....please do some study and see that John the Baptist will be part of the earthly resurrection, having died before Jesus. No human went to heaven until Christ opened the way. It was symbolized by the curtain in the temple being rent in two from top to bottom.

Unless you are an older fogie than I am, it is more likely I have studied the Bible more than you have. That doe snot mean I am always right,but I have done my homework for 40+ years. No one is always right.

 

[Valerian]

Consider: you finally die and find yourself in Heaven. A year goes by and you start taking stock of your life there.
What is your day-to-day existence like?
What do find that's keeping you from being bored, day after day after day---like forever?

Well for someone like myself certain of the existence of the God of the Bible and eternal heaven as well, such a question (imo) would be an insult to God. But be that as it may, I suggest the following as a respons.

Consider what might comprise a perfect life of 70 years here on earth? I might suggest one born into a loving family with many siblings, brought up in pleasant surroundings with joy and laughter and no injuries or sorrows. You move on to be married with the dream of your desires, or you have multiple loves or your life. You do not work, you enjoy food, music, tranquility and marvel at all of God’s creation. When you are 70 you bid adieu to your loved ones although everyone knows you will meet again. Why do they know that? Because after you are taken away you are born again as an infant and have a very similar cycle of life, except, you have no memory of the previous one so it is all brand new wonders for you and it is filled with peace and joy. That could repeat ad infinitum and you would never experience boredom. What would be so bad about that?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Interesting. How did you come across this fascinating bit of information?


.

Christians Including Roman Catholics and Anglicans, to name but two denominations, believe that God is outside time and not constrained by it.

It would be complicated indeed, If heaven were any different, and that God, souls of the departed and Heaven all existed in different time frames.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Out of curiosity, what's wrong with online universities? Liberty and Regent are two of the most prominent religious universities that offer online courses in the USA, and both are accredited. Heck, even major secular universities offer degree programs online now, and Ivy League schools even offer courses (though not degrees yet). If you do the work, does it really matter if you sat at home or in a class?

But to answer your question, being ordained has nothing to do with having a degree in theology. Ordination just means that I can legally marry people per state law. However, my ThD came from Bethany Divinity College & Seminary in Dothan, AL. That is an accredited institution via AAHEA.

That is interesting. Being ordained in the UK gives no legal right to marry anyone.
The Church Of England has such a right, but Bishops must licence individual priests to do so, as part of their pastoral duties.
Other churches and Faiths are even less able to do so, and some must have a civil registrar present to do the civil part. Or the marriage is not valid.
Just about anyone can be a celebrant at a wedding but it has no legal standing. The legal part must be done by a civil registrar, or a person licensed to act as one.