* sigh* Just Another Day In Heaven

[URAVIP2ME]

Everyone does not go to heaven.
It is the dead in Christ who will rise first, not those who are dead but not in Christ. Enoch and Elijah went to heaven before the resurrection of Jesus.
This is speaking about spirit-anointed Christians.....all of the first Christians were spirit anointed....they were all taken into the "New Covenant" with Jesus as "firstfruits". No one before them was anointed for heavenly life, so where did they all go when they died? Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? (John 11:11-14)

Everyone who died before the resurrection went to Sheol. Sheol is divided into to parts---paradise and torments. Lazarus went to paradise, wher the otghe Lazarus was and where the thief on the cross who believed who Jesus was.
Where did Jesus say David was? (Acts 2:34-35) What about John the Baptist who died before Jesus?
Matthew 11:11:
"Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."
How could that be if John is also in the Kingdom of the heavens?[/QUOTE]
two were in heaven and the angels are in heaven. John is greater than any of them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, to me, angels are in heaven because of being created as spirit creation.
David did Not ascend - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 - and John the Baptizer is also Not in heaven - Matthew 11:11
that is because No one on Earth was called to heavenly life before Jesus died - John 3:13

What Scripture teaches Enoch or Elijah were resurrected to heaven:
Enoch was taken by God - Genesis 5:24 - but taken does Not have to mean resurrected.
God simply disposed of Enoch's body as in the case of Moses - Hebrews 11:5; Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Jude 1:9
None of the people mentioned at Hebrews 11 were resurrected - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' because physical resurrections will take place in the future millennium time of Jesus governing over earth for a thousand years.

Elijah taken in the windstorm - 2 Kings 2:11 - Not to the dwelling home of God, but into the mid-heavens where the birds fly. Our physical atmospheric heavens where Elijah was transferred from one place to another by the wind.
Elijah was still alive on Earth at least 5 years later because living Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram according to 2 Chronicles 21:1,12-15.

Jesus taught the dead are in a sleep-like state according to John 11:12-14
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach un-conscious sleep in death:
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, Enoch and Elijah are still asleep in the grave as is King David and John the Baptizer.
Those called to heaven start with the new covenant including those of Luke 22:28-30, and Not those who lived and died before Jesus died.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I've never understood why a Christian would worry about continuity of life? Surely a 100% Christian believer would welcome death, rather like the Jehovah Witnesses are famed for in the Nazi death-camps? Now there's Faith for you.

Not just people professing Christianity, but healthy people all over the Earth don't welcome death otherwise they would Not go to doctors. Sick and tortured people could welcome death especially when there is No recovery hope.
No recovery hope, but hope in a future life because of belief in a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15; Revelation 1:18
Didn't Jehovah's Witnesses share their food in the death camps? Not because they welcomed death, but wanted all to live. They died by execution because they would Not compromise their faith as others did.
The Jews could Not leave the camps, but Jehovah's Witnesses could leave if they denounced their religion.
- Nazi photos showing Christian influence

 

[Deeje]

No probs, apart from you quoting 1 Corinthians, because Paul was no witness to the last-supper. But the synoptics throw the date back by a day, probably just a mistake copied from G-Mark into Matthew etc.

I know some people have a problem with Paul because he arrived after the death of Christ, but his story is an interesting one to say the least. He may not have been present at the Last supper but he was a partaker of the bread and wine on Nisan 14 for every year he lived after that.
Also interesting is that Paul was not educated by the other apostles, but the scriptures indicate that he was educated like the others...by Jesus himself, post resurrection.

By the Way, do you have an approximate Exodus route? I am very interested in Exodus. Do you have any opinion as to why the chosen time was a Full-Moon in spring time? This is just me, rambling thoughts and all.

What about this? Not sure what the time of year has to do with things but this explains quite a bit....

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001458

 

[Deeje]

It might be good if you could master the quoting system here.....it makes replying that much easier....

It is the dead in Christ who will rise first, not those who are dead but not in Christ. Enoch and Elijah went to heaven before the resurrection of Jesus.

Neither Enoch nor Elijah went to heaven....or else the apostle John is a liar.
John 3:13:
"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

The Jews had no belief in going to heaven. They believed that the dead would "sleep" and await an earthly resurrection. Even Job, who lived before Israel became a nation, believed in a resurrection.

Job 14:12-15:
"Man also lies down and does not get up.
Until heaven is no more, they will not wake up,
Nor will they be aroused from their sleep.
13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me,
That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!
14 If a man dies, can he live again?
I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.
15 You will call, and I will answer you.
You will long for the work of your hands."

King David did not go to heaven.

Acts 2:32-35:
"God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.
34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet"

Everyone who died before the resurrection went to Sheol. Sheol is divided into to parts---paradise and torments. Lazarus went to paradise, wher the otghe Lazarus was and where the thief on the cross who believed who Jesus was.

Sheol is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "hades" according to the Septuagint.
Solomon said that there is no conscious activity in the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, with symbolic characters, not real ones. And the evildoer hung alongside Jesus was promised "paradise" not heaven. Jesus did not go to heaven that day, so he couldn't have promised that to the thief.
This man was not a Christian but acknowledged Jesus as King of God's kingdom...that might earn him a place among the righteous come resurrection time. (John 5:28, 29)

two were in heaven and the angels are in heaven. John is greater than any of them.

Seriously.....please do some study and see that John the Baptist will be part of the earthly resurrection, having died before Jesus. No human went to heaven until Christ opened the way. It was symbolized by the curtain in the temple being rent in two from top to bottom.

 

[Dawnofhope]

When one has been raised to believe the first lie told by the devil, ("you surely will not die") it is hard to dismiss it.

Thank you for your considered thoughts on this matter. Lets step back a little.

Do you believe that God literally created the world in 7 days (6 excluding the rest) as recorded in the book of Genesis?
If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Deeje]

Thank you for your considered thoughts on this matter. Lets step back a little.

Do you believe that God literally created the world in 7 days (6 excluding the rest) as recorded in the book of Genesis?
If so, why? If not, why not?

We believe that the creative days were thousands of years long and we also believe that the earth itself is very ancient.....possibly billions of years old. There is no timeframe between Genesis 1:1, 2 and the preparatory work that followed, getting the earth ready for living creatures. This was not carried out in 24 hour days. There was a beginning and an end to each creative epoch but that is similar to saying "the dawn of a new era".....or something that happened "in my grandfather's day".
The word in Hebrew "yohm" has a wider meaning than just a 24 hour period. It is used in Genesis 2:4 to describe the whole creative period.

We also believe that the seventh day has not ended.....hence the apostle Paul's reference to it as still ongoing. The kingdom of God will rule the last thousand years of the seventh day, bringing God's purpose to its natural conclusion. Only then will God be able to conclude the seventh day with the same declaration of satisfaction as the sixth.....all will again be "very good".

 

[Dawnofhope]

We believe that the creative days were thousands of years long and we also believe that the earth itself is very ancient.....possibly billions of years old. There is no timeframe between Genesis 1:1, 2 and the preparatory work that followed, getting the earth ready for living creatures. This was not carried out in 24 hour days. There was a beginning and an end to each creative epoch but that is similar to saying "the dawn of a new era".....or something that happened "in my grandfather's day".
The word in Hebrew "yohm" has a wider meaning than just a 24 hour period. It is used in Genesis 2:4 to describe the whole creative period.

We also believe that the seventh day has not ended.....hence the apostle Paul's reference to it as still ongoing. The kingdom of God will rule the last thousand years of the seventh day, bringing God's purpose to its natural conclusion. Only then will God be able to conclude the seventh day with the same declaration of satisfaction as the sixth.....all will again be "very good".

Well thats a relief you are not a creationist

Next question. Presuming you do not believe the earth is the Centre of the universe, why do you think it took the Christan Chruch so long to accept that it wasn't?

 

[Neo Deist]

In fact, because of your evasion I'm beginning to suspect your Th.D may actually have come from something like a Liberty Online University or a Patriot Bible University.

Out of curiosity, what's wrong with online universities? Liberty and Regent are two of the most prominent religious universities that offer online courses in the USA, and both are accredited. Heck, even major secular universities offer degree programs online now, and Ivy League schools even offer courses (though not degrees yet). If you do the work, does it really matter if you sat at home or in a class?

But to answer your question, being ordained has nothing to do with having a degree in theology. Ordination just means that I can legally marry people per state law. However, my ThD came from Bethany Divinity College & Seminary in Dothan, AL. That is an accredited institution via AAHEA.

 

[Deeje]

Well thats a relief you are not a creationist

Next question. Presuming you do not believe the earth is the Centre of the universe, why do you think it took the Christan Chruch so long to accept that it wasn't?

Simple......It wasn't "Christian". Jesus foretold a coming apostasy and so did his apostles....this took place very early in the piece, so that by the time of the Roman takeover, there was little resemblance to original Christianity, and the big boys at the top had so much power it corrupted the socks off them!

 

[Skwim]

Out of curiosity, what's wrong with online universities? Liberty and Regent are two of the most prominent religious universities that offer online courses in the USA, and both are accredited. Heck, even major secular universities offer degree programs online now, and Ivy League schools even offer courses (though not degrees yet). If you do the work, does it really matter if you sat at home or in a class?

But to answer your question, being ordained has nothing to do with having a degree in theology. Ordination just means that I can legally marry people per state law. However, my ThD came from Bethany Divinity College & Seminary in Dothan, AL. That is an accredited institution via AAHEA.

I might be impressed if BDC&S was accredited by a legitimate accreditation agency, but it isn't.

In an article on "Recent Developments with Degree Mills: Counterfit Diploma and Transcript Operations" by Allen Ezell, See HERE, the American Association for Higher Education and Accreditation, which Bethany Divinity College and Seminary lists as it accreditor, is referred to as a "fraudulent entity" and an "accreditation mill" (see pages 43 &45)

"AAHEA (American Association for Higher Educationand Accreditation) assumed the identity and telephone number of a previously existing (legitimate) Washington, DC-based organization; it even established a mail drop address in Washington, DC to hide its true location,in Ocala, Florida."​

This not only reflects very poorly on the integrity BDC&S, but makes all of their programs and degrees highly suspect. Sorry, but under these circumstances your Th. D doesn't mean much.


.

 

[arthra]

Consider: you finally die and find yourself in Heaven. A year goes by and you start taking stock of your life there.What is your day-to-day existence like? What do find that's keeping you from being bored, day after day after day---like forever?

For me "heaven" is not a place or locale where time passes in a "day to day existence" as we have on this plane of reality. Heaven is more a condition of our being near or nearer to God. The spiritual worlds that we will ascend to are also unlike this world of space and time.

 

[Skwim]

For me "heaven" is not a place or locale where time passes in a "day to day existence" as we have on this plane of reality. Heaven is more a condition of our being near or nearer to God. The spiritual worlds that we will ascend to are also unlike this world of space and time.

Then just consider my "you finally die and find yourself in Heaven." to read: "you finally die and find yourself in a condition people call Heaven.


.

 

[Neo Deist]

I might be impressed if BDC&S was accredited by a legitimate accreditation agency, but it isn't.

In an article on "Recent Developments with Degree Mills: Counterfit Diploma and Transcript Operations" by Allen Ezell, See HERE, the American Association for Higher Education and Accreditation, which Bethany Divinity College and Seminary lists as it accreditor, is referred to as a "fraudulent entity" and an "accreditation mill" (see pages 43 &45)

"AAHEA (American Association for Higher Educationand Accreditation) assumed the identity and telephone number of a previously existing (legitimate) Washington, DC-based organization; it even established a mail drop address in Washington, DC to hide its true location,in Ocala, Florida."​

This not only reflects very poorly on the integrity BDC&S, but makes all of their programs and degrees highly suspect. Sorry, but under these circumstances your Th. D doesn't mean much.


.

Actually, religious institutions are not subject to the same government oversight as secular universities because of the 1st Amendment. Religious degrees are used within the Church, and thus relevant to the line of work they are geared for. You are right in that it does not mean much outside of the Church or religious affiliations, but since this is Religious Forums, my degree and the title it confers is relevant, just as it is relevant in my capacity as a police chaplain.

It is a Protestant (Baptist) based degree/doctorate so it will be at odds with Catholicism or Mormonism. The same could be said of Judaism, Islam or Hinduism for that matter. All religions are man made. There is a reason that I am a deist...

None of that changes the fact that I spent ~8 years going through the courses, doing the research, writing the papers, doing the thesis and dissertation and EARNING a Th.D. That is something that you can't take away from me, no matter how much you try and downplay it, mock it or brush it off. I fully expected you to try and attack my seminary and discredit it. That is the typical tactic of someone that has no real ground to stand on.

Oh, btw...just because the US government does not recognize a particular accreditation does not mean that it is bad or fake. Besides, as stated above, religious institutions don't need accreditation in the first place. The whole separation of Church and State.

For the record, Bethany became aware of the shady nature of AAHEA (it used to be legit and based out of D.C.) and is now working to attain accreditation through SACS. They are not the only school to be duped by scam artists.

Even the retired president of Troy State University [founded in 1887 - an outstanding school with regional accreditation] has Bethany reviewed as an excellent divinity school and seminary and on par with some of the more prominent ones across the country. The course curriculum and workload was no pushover.

Having said all of that, let's get back to the OP, shall we? Please tell me where the Bible states that we go to heaven when we die. Name the chapter/verse.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Simple......It wasn't "Christian". Jesus foretold a coming apostasy and so did his apostles....this took place very early in the piece, so that by the time of the Roman takeover, there was little resemblance to original Christianity, and the big boys at the top had so much power it corrupted the socks off them!

OK then, I see you are not too keen on too much historical analysis and the Creation question I would have liked to see some science in your answer That's just me but science is about reasoning and history is about understanding context.

For Baha'is there are 2 great pillars of knowledge. Religion and science. When you have science without religion materialism results and religion without science leads to superstition.

Are you aware that your 144,000 remark earlier in this thread resulted in a Christian starting a new thread criticising your religion?

I'm pleased we are talking because you have taught me about Emojis. You use them so well and regardless of our different perspectives you seem like a really nice person

 

[Altfish]

I've not read through all this thread, so apologies if this point has been made already...

Can you imagine all the boring people that will have made it to heaven? All the people that in real life you avoid like the plague. Pious, righteous, busy bodies who don't drink, don't swear, don't have dirty thoughts. Aaaaargh!

I want to be with the bad boys and girls. Give me Christopher Hitchens, George Best, Lemmy, Jerry Garcia, Janice Joplin, etc.
Instead I'm stuck with Mother Teresa, Jerry Fulwell, Mary Whitehouse and the likes.

No Hell seems a much better option

 

[oldbadger]

What about this? Not sure what the time of year has to do with things.......

Most HATs (highest astronomical tides) occur within the equinoxes. A strong three day blow from the South East backing the water up into the Red Sea would produce huge tidal surge and bore into the Reed Sea....Massive. Huge.

Only the Jews knew the channels of the Reed Sea. No Egyptian was going into that desease invested region.

They knew exactly when to go, how to go, where to go and what would happen to any pursuers, methinks.

I don't think that such ideas are very highly interesting to JWs because the ones that I know just stick to the bible, but I accept the Exodus 100% ..... No probs.

 

[Deeje]

OK then, I see you are not too keen on too much historical analysis and the Creation question I would have liked to see some science in your answer That's just me but science is about reasoning and history is about understanding context.

Actually, the historical analysis is quite an eye opener when we realize what the Bible told us to expect once Jesus had completed his earthly mission. Corruption in the church led it away from the Creator and the truth about creation. This is what Christ and his apostles foretold. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43; Acts 20:30; 2 Thess 2:3-11; 2 Peter 2:1)

When men like Galileo challenged the "church" those pompous church leaders reacted with anger and hailed him before the court of the Roman Inquisition. He was a man of science, one of the best known of the day. His scientific convictions were based on long years of study and research. Yet, if he wanted to save his life, he had to renounce what he knew to be true.

He was found guilty of “having held and believed false doctrine, contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures, that the Sun..... does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world.”
Galileo did not want to become a martyr, so he was forced to recant. We can only imagine his immense frustration and disappointment.

Many people have concluded that Galileo’s example proves that science and religion are hopelessly incompatible, that over the centuries the Galileo case has alienated people from religion. It has convinced many that religion is by nature a threat to scientific progress. But is that really true?

The contradiction in Galileo's day, lay between science and an obviously incorrect interpretation of Scripture. That was how Galileo saw it. He wrote to one of his pupils: “Even though Scripture cannot err, its interpreters and expositors can, in various ways. One of these, very serious and very frequent, would be when they always want to stop at the purely literal sense.” Any serious student of the Bible would have to agree.

There should NOT be any disagreement between religion and science, but when both have gone off on opposite tangents, I can see that both are promoting errors. There is somewhere in the middle where God, science and creation meet agreeably.

For Baha'is there are 2 great pillars of knowledge. Religion and science. When you have science without religion materialism results and religion without science leads to superstition.

And we see so much of both today....sadly.

Neither contributes anything of value to the world.

JW's see God (Jehovah) as the creator of science, so there can be no incompatibility.
We have no time for materialism or superstition. We are just seekers of truth....defenders of the faith.....preachers of the Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)

Are you aware that your 144,000 remark earlier in this thread resulted in a Christian starting a new thread criticising your religion?

We are used to that. Jesus had to endure it, and he said that his disciples would cop the same kind of treatment. (John 15:18-21) We have to smile because when you have to resort to 'shooting the messenger', it means you have run out of defense for your own arguments.

Anyone who really knows us, will take no notice....and those who want to believe the rubbish are free to do so.
Almost the entire nation of Israel was persuaded to reject their Messiah based on what? Misrepresentation....nothing changes because human nature does not change. People will believe what they want to believe.

I'm pleased we are talking because you have taught me about Emojis. You use them so well and regardless of our different perspectives you seem like a really nice person

Well, thank you cousin

Emoji's can soften what could be interpreted as harsh words and add some body language to the conversation. Things can get a bit heated otherwise.

I use my own source on here because they add so much to a conversation. I am really enjoying our interchange and thank you for your civility. You seem like a really nice and reasonable person too.

 

[Deeje]

Most HATs (highest astronomical tides) occur within the equinoxes. A strong three day blow from the South East backing the water up into the Red Sea would produce huge tidal surge and bore into the Reed Sea....Massive. Huge.

Only the Jews knew the channels of the Reed Sea. No Egyptian was going into that desease invested region.

They knew exactly when to go, how to go, where to go and what would happen to any pursuers, methinks.

I don't think that such ideas are very highly interesting to JWs because the ones that I know just stick to the bible, but I accept the Exodus 100% ..... No probs.

I have a (non-JW) member of my family who is into proving that the miracles in the Bible were just natural phenomena.

Regardless of the reason why something happened, the law of cause and effect means that something had to cause it.
I don't see why that 'something' couldn't have been God. If he had the power to create the Universe, then parting a small body of water would have been no trouble at all.

 

[Deeje]

I've not read through all this thread, so apologies if this point has been made already...

Can you imagine all the boring people that will have made it to heaven? All the people that in real life you avoid like the plague. Pious, righteous, busy bodies who don't drink, don't swear, don't have dirty thoughts. Aaaaargh!

I want to be with the bad boys and girls. Give me Christopher Hitchens, George Best, Lemmy, Jerry Garcia, Janice Joplin, etc.
Instead I'm stuck with Mother Teresa, Jerry Fulwell, Mary Whitehouse and the likes.

No Hell seems a much better option

I hate to disappoint you but there is no such place as hell....all you will get is a boring sleep that never ends.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is what Christ and his apostles foretold. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43; Acts 20:30; 2 Thess 2:3-11; 2 Peter 2:1)

Mathew 13:24-30 captures beautifully this truth :

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

One interpretation is that the weeds are the religious dogmas and doctrines that have had their day.