Ruining Humanity

[Hockeycowboy]

So religions that support the death sentence and/or joining with Jesus in his Armageddon war to kill non-believers are based in a faulty ideology?

No human is joining with Jesus to kill anyone, as far as I know. Jesus doesn’t need any human aid for that; he has “powerful angels” to support him. — 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8.

It’s his, and his Father’s, judgement call to make….not any human’s.

Christians are required to follow the “Law of the Christ”: to love their neighbors…even their enemies. Galatians 6:2; John 13:34; Matthew 5:44; Philippians 2:3,4

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm a bit disappointed neither of you could have a serious discourse with me without throwing the Baha'i Faith in my face.

If you post to Baha'is you are usually going to get the Baha'i viewpoint.

The reason I stepped in and replied to what Tony said was because what Tony said was not related to the downfall of society, so I was looking for something that more accurately represents a Baha'i viewpoint.

The downfall of society is not because people have not established the unity of mankind. It is because of the decline or religion and belief in God, particularly because of the decline of the Christian faith, in which the value system of the West is rooted.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm a bit disappointed neither of you could have a serious discourse with me without throwing the Baha'i Faith in my face.

The serious discussion about this will always include the Message given by Baha'u'llah.

The issue is, that humanity has rejected the advice given in that Message.

Any other discussion will not help humanity. That is the plain and simple truth.

Thus I now go silent again, I am disappointed people are not able to grasp this is the issue.

Regards Tony

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?

None of the above. Human nature itself is responsible for the many adoptions of forms of religion and/or spirituality -- and for how they sometimes provide some comforts and answers, and also for how they far too often engender hatreds and conflict. Human nature itself is responsible, often throught our inventions of various ideologies -- that often fly in the face of reason -- that permit us to rape and despoil the earth itself, the only home we have, and where we must survive or die out.

Spirituality, when it is seen as an effort by humans to connect with and understand our place in an often-mysterious universe, I would generally call a positive thing. But spirituality (if it really is spirituality) involves no dogma, no "truths that must be believed," and is therefore not dangerous. Only that which must be believed no matter what -- which includes not only religious beliefs but political dogmas as well -- and which humans seem all to willing to accept no matter what evidence might tell them if they looked -- that is what will lead to the worst of human experience.

And as a humanist, I have to see that only reason and the acceptance of such truths as can be evidenced will save us. I also know, however, that most humans find reason about all aspects of human experience to be very, very hard to achieve. You will understand that that makes me something of a pessimist about the long-term future of humanity on this planet. And since we have nowhere else to go, our long-term future in the universe as a whole.

 

[Unfettered]

Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?

From a social standpoint, does not the continuum feature civilization on one pole and animalism on the other? If so, and if society is moving away from civilization toward animalism, I'd offer that the cause is a rejection—including unconscious rejection—of the principles that lift human beings out of animalism into civilization.

And since I understand that all principles are spiritual in nature, meaning they are abstract and transcend the material, I must conclude that the movement toward animalism is a spiritual experience. The spiritual brings us to civilization; the spiritual brings us to destroy it.

 

[syo]

Julius Caesar destroyed the world.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

From a social standpoint, does not the continuum feature civilization on one pole and animalism on the other? If so, and if society is moving away from civilization toward animalism, I'd offer that the cause is a rejection—including unconscious rejection—of the principles that lift human beings out of animalism into civilization.

And since I understand that all principles are spiritual in nature, meaning they are abstract and transcend the material, I must conclude that the movement toward animalism is a spiritual experience. The spiritual brings us to civilization; the spiritual brings us to destroy it.

And I'd argue the opposite -- true spirituality cannot "transcend the material." It must accept that to be as much a real part of our existence as what we perceive to be immaterial; our thoughts and feelings.

It is only the ill-considered acceptance of dogma (of every kind, not just religious) that leads us away from ourselves.

 

[Quintessence]

You do have to wonder to what extent Western society's disregard for the environment is somehow a manifestation of the Christian idea that this world doesn't matter; "Who cares if we ruin this world? God's going to give us a new one any day now".

Not as much as you might think, considering this same religion also played a very significant role in inspiring environmentalism. Frankly, Christian scriptures can be spun to support whatever one wants them to. That is... well, it is what it is.

I've done a fair bit of reading on this particular topic, and the desacralization or objectification of nature has more to do with it. This happens in some traditions of Christianity, but it was also heavily pushed by non-theistic Enlightenment values and capitalism.

 

[Quintessence]

I think there is a downfall "downfall" of morality in society because I believe there is a "correct" state for it. I do not believe that is a willy-nilly human projection onto the world, I believe it is according to the Laws of God. People have failed to follow these Laws, and I think it will be a long time before they will, and even then not all people will follow them. Nobody knows what the future holds because the future is not here yet.

If your god has these laws, they're inevitably interpreted and communicated by humans. As I see it as an outsider, worshipers of your god don't seem to agree on what your god's laws are. So where does that leave us? Doesn't that make it unrealistic to expect humanity to conform to these laws when they aren't agreed upon and can't be communicated consistently? What, then, is the purpose in trying (or more significantly, in attempting to force everyone to follow some particular interpretation of your god's laws)?

With these inconsistencies and conundrums, hopefully it makes a bit of sense why outsiders to your religion conclude these laws aren't from your god but things its worshipers are projecting onto the universe. There's nothing bad or wrong about making such projections - it's kind of an inevitable part of the human experience - what I like to keep in mind is that realities will inevitably fail to revolve around human expectations and normative projections like "correct" or "normal" states... whether the human believes that normative projection comes from a god or otherwise.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?

I amazes me how this rumor that religion is somehow responsible for most of the world's ills is just rampant on the internet.

Certainly, religion can be abused, and when this happens, people get hurt. But you can't blame that on the religion -- that is the fault of flawed human beings.

Now let's look objectively at what religion DOES do. It unifies cultures and creates cooperative groups. And we all know, cooperative groups out compete non-cooperative groups every time. This is why evolutionary biologist David Spears says that religion is primarily an adaptive thing, that it evolved for a reason.

 

[Trailblazer]

If your god has these laws, they're inevitably interpreted and communicated by humans. As I see it as an outsider, worshipers of your god don't seem to agree on what your god's laws are. So where does that leave us? Doesn't that make it unrealistic to expect humanity to conform to these laws when they aren't agreed upon and can't be communicated consistently? What, then, is the purpose in trying (or more significantly, in attempting to force everyone to follow some particular interpretation of your god's laws)?

Why would anyone expect God's Laws to be the same in every age of history? That makes no sense since humans and the world we live in change dramatically over time.

The part of the religion refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

“The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, p. 48

It unrealistic to expect humanity to conform to laws that don't apply to the age we live in. Are we going to stone to death adulterers and homosexuals? I hope not. Where does that leave us? From a Baha'i perspective, people should accept the laws that were revealed for the present age, but obviously that is not going to happen unless they accept the religion.

With these inconsistencies and conundrums, hopefully it makes a bit of sense why outsiders to your religion conclude these laws aren't from your god but things its worshipers are projecting onto the universe.

I think that outsiders to my religion conclude Baha'i Laws aren't from God because they don't believe that Baha'u'llah, who revealed these Laws, was a Messenger of God.

 

[Unfettered]

And I'd argue the opposite -- true spirituality cannot "transcend the material." It must accept that to be as much a real part of our existence as what we perceive to be immaterial; our thoughts and feelings.

It is only the ill-considered acceptance of dogma (of every kind, not just religious) that leads us away from ourselves.

I agree.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't say that spirituality transcended the material, but that principles transcend the material, being intangible things (ideas).

 

[danieldemol]

Certainly, religion can be abused, and when this happens, people get hurt. But you can't blame that on the religion -- that is the fault of flawed human beings.

In my view you can precisely because religion is the product of faulty flawed human beings.

 

[danieldemol]

It’s his, and his Father’s, judgement call to make….not any human’s.

So what do you make of this;
'And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls* of those executed* for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.+ And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ+ for 1,000 years.'

Source: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/revelation/20/

Specifically what do you think they are going to judge, peoples tax affairs?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Julius Caesar destroyed the world.

But he left behind some great dressing!

 

[1213]

Have you read the old testament?

Yes I have, many times. It tells for example don't murder, steal, lie.... Are you opposing those and think they are not good rules?

 

[ChristineM]

Yes I have, many times. It tells for example don't murder, steal, lie.... Are you opposing those and think they are not good rules?

It also tells off genocide, murder, slavery, rape, and theft either by the Abraham god or in his name are you ignoring the violence?

 

[MikeF]

You do have to wonder to what extent Western society's disregard for the environment is somehow a manifestation of the Christian idea that this world doesn't matter; "Who cares if we ruin this world? God's going to give us a new one any day now".

Is it a Western society thing, or more of an economic/development thing? Have you been to China, for example? Western countries are on the other side of their rapid industrialization and growth and have accumulated sufficient societal wealth to address (locally) the ecological aftermath, to a certain extent, except for carbon emissions. Many Eastern economies seem to me to be in the phase of rapid industrial growth and are experiencing the associated impacts to air and water quality, as well as matching the West in carbon emissions. I do not see this pattern as reflective of any religious ideas, either Eastern or Western sourced, rather, I see it as economic.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is it a Western society thing, or more of an economic/development thing? Have you been to China, for example? Western countries are on the other side of their rapid industrialization and growth and have accumulated sufficient societal wealth to address (locally) the ecological aftermath, to a certain extent, except for carbon emissions. Many Eastern economies seem to me to be in the phase of rapid industrial growth and are experiencing the associated impacts to air and water quality, as well as matching the West in carbon emissions. I do not see this pattern as reflective of any religious ideas, either Eastern or Western sourced, rather, I see it as economic.

I don't see why you make an exception for carbon emissions. That's simply an economic choice, and right now, it seems money is more important to a lot of people than a future for our species (including their offspring). As the inevitable progresses, we'll see whether that changes, and if it does, if it will be in time.

 

[PureX]

Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?

Is a hammer a weapon or a tool?

It depends on the desires of the person wielding it.