Ruining Humanity

[We Never Know]

Has society fallen? When was the peak? How far do you consider society to have fallen? I guess I should also ask if you mean human society overall, or a specific society, like the United States.



Do you consider morals to be destroyed? When was society at its best? What morality has been lost? In what way was society you are referencing more moral overall?

As for ecology, we have the issue of global warming, but the full impact of that will be in the future. I've seen big improvements in air and water quality over my lifetime. Do you consider the current state of the global ecology as destroyed since you reference the destruction we see at hand?

IMO saying religion is to blame for the downfall of society is equivalent to saying science is to blame for global warming.

 

[Soandso]

IMO saying religion is to blame for the downfall of society is equivalent to saying science is to blame for global warming.

 

[Link]

Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?

I would say religion, politics, ideology, news verifying, propaganda, all of these when people go to them halfheartedly become a problem. Of course balance is life is important, but truth seeking and enjoining is important to. They are not mutually exclusive.

Humans are a potential treasure or potential trash.

Proof to me is important. Truth seeking tools are important. I find when people are playful to God's books or religion or politics, they think lightly of their actions, but there are huge consequences to themselves and others in fact are effected by their example, words and ways.

Seeing God is meant to be striven for and God is not meant to be used for worldly authority nor is spirituality to be used nor religion to be used for worldly gains.

When people are using God for worldly benefits and are his friend outwardly while his enemy inwardly, we have a problem.

 

[Soandso]

Personally I don't feel religion is ruining society more than it's an aspect of it, more or less. There are repressive expressions of religion, and there are more relaxed expressions. Religion will evolve much as it always has as cultural norms change throughout time and place, albeit more slowly when compared to other cultural changes

 

[Mock Turtle]

Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

Not strictly, but much of the more dogmatic beliefs hardly help in promoting cohesion and trust between peoples. And hence where divisions are not the best to make our downfall less likely. Given that many strongly held beliefs tend to oppose others firmly held too.

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

More an aspect of human nature probably, even if it tends to be the few doing so and the many being led so often.

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?

Possibly a bit of both as to cure, but if many can live without such beliefs and yet remain less likely to cause friction, divisions, and/or conflict, perhaps there are benefits in not having such beliefs.

 

[Quagmire]

Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?

You do have to wonder to what extent Western society's disregard for the environment is somehow a manifestation of the Christian idea that this world doesn't matter; "Who cares if we ruin this world? God's going to give us a new one any day now".

 

[Trailblazer]

I reject the assumption that there is a "downfall of (human) society." Or that there's a similar downfall of "morals" (which are made up by humans) or ecologies (which are always changing). In order to suppose the "downfall" of anything, you first have to suppose there is a "correct" state for it. And that's a willy-nilly human projection onto the world that reality will inevitably fail to conform to.

I think there is a downfall "downfall" of morality in society because I believe there is a "correct" state for it. I do not believe that is a willy-nilly human projection onto the world, I believe it is according to the Laws of God. People have failed to follow these Laws, and I think it will be a long time before they will, and even then not all people will follow them. Nobody knows what the future holds because the future is not here yet.

To see the downfall all one has to do is watch a TV program such as The Waltons and compare that with the present state of society.
I don't think people realize how decadent this society is because it has come to be accepted as "the norm." They think that the way people lived back in those days is corny.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do have to wonder to what extent Western society's disregard for the environment is somehow a manifestation of the Christian idea that this world doesn't matter; "Who cares if we ruin this world? God's going to give us a new one any day now".

I don't wonder, I know. The bulk of Christians believe that God's going to give us a new earth any day now, when Jesus returns.
That way they don't have to worry about the present world or do anything to change it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Downfall of society? I don't see the world through these same glasses.

What am I missing?

Watch a TV show such as The Waltons and compare it to present-day society and maybe you will see what you are missing.

Ruining Humanity

Has society fallen? When was the peak? How far do you consider society to have fallen? I guess I should also ask if you mean human society overall, or a specific society, like the United States. Do you consider morals to be destroyed? When was society at its best? What morality has been...

www.religiousforums.com

Then again, you might think that the morals of present-day society are just peachy-keen.

 

[Trailblazer]

IMO saying religion is to blame for the downfall of society is equivalent to saying science is to blame for global warming.

Scientists would be to blame if they did nothing to address global warming and instead just let it continue unabated...
Likewise, Christians who sit back and let society deteriorate while they wait for Jesus to return carry some of the blame for the deterioration.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Watch a TV show such as The Waltons and compare it to present-day society and maybe you will see what you are missing.

*smiles* You do know The Waltons isn't real life, yes?

 

[Trailblazer]

*smiles* You do know The Waltons isn't real life, yes?

Yes, I know, but that does not mean that real life could not be like that....
Just because I never had a family like that that doesn't mean loving families do not exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

*smiles* You do know The Waltons isn't real life, yes?

Your claim precipitated me doing a quick google search.

Are The Waltons based on a real family?

For creator, writer, story narrator and editor, Earl Hamner Jr., The Waltons represented an entire time period and way of thinking. According to a 1973 interview with Detroit Free Press, Hamner said each of The Waltons' family members was based on the real Hamner household in Virginia. Jul 18, 2023

The Waltons was a reflection of Earl Hamner Jr.'s family in real ...​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Downfall of society? I don't see the world through these same glasses.

What am I missing?

The obvious downfall of humanity.

The drastic need for humanity to change its ways.

Regards Tony

 

[SalixIncendium]

The obvious downfall of humanity.

The drastic need for humanity to change its ways.

Regards Tony

Well that cleared things right up for me. Thanks for breaking it down so I can better understand it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well that cleared things right up for me. Thanks for breaking it down so I can better understand it.

I have done that in the past, if you are to be fair about that SalixIncendium. I no longer see the point of giving detail on RF.

It boils down to this statement by Baha'u'llah

"..The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded..."

Now that makes it 100% possible for us to list where humanity downfall is very apparent. There is written guidance as to what the "Councels from God" are.

We can compare the list against issues humanity currently face.

Regards Tony

 

[SalixIncendium]

I have done that in the past, if you are to be fair about that SalixIncendium. I no longer see the point of giving detail on RF.

It boils down to this statement by Baha'u'llah

"..The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded..."

Now that makes it 100% possible for us to list where humanity downfall is very apparent. There is written guidance as to what the "Councels from God" are.

We can compare the list against issues humanity currently face.

Regards Tony

C'mon Tony. You know I don't do God prophecies or messengers.

I was hoping for something more...I don't know...evident?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was hoping for something more...I don't know...evident?

Here is an article I found that is more to the point we were discussing, the downfall of society.

Abstract: This paper proposes that Bahá'u'lláh's ethical teachings and injunctions, the "Straight Path" to human happiness, provide a coherent moral system. It suggests that a Bahá'í "hierarchy of virtues" rests on several metaphysical premises: God is the source of absolute moral values; man is in full control of his drives and actions and therefore morally responsible; virtuous behaviour is rewarded in the afterlife. Bahá'í ethics can be subdivided into two types of ethical instructions which are complementary. One is teleological (an ethic of virtue, aiming at "good deeds" and "a praiseworthy character"); the other is deontological (laws, commandments, prohibitions). Another classification is into three categories of virtues, constituting duties to God, to oneself and to others: the "theological virtues", the "virtues of the Path", and the "worldly virtues", of which justice has been assigned the highest rank.

The ultimate reason for Western society's crisis of morals is, as I have pointed out elsewhere,(2) the decline of the Christian faith, in which the value system of the West is rooted. It is striking that at the very time when Friedrich Nietzsche announced the "death of God", and, in its consequence, the collapse of the moral order (a process which would inevitably result in what he called "nihilism"(3) ), Bahá'u'lláh proclaimed this apocalyptic event:

To continue reading: The New morality

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This is related to what I said about The Waltons. The Waltons represents values that society had back when most people were Christians who adhered to the Bible. Over the course of the 20th century, and now continuing into the 21st century, there has been a steady decline of the Christian faith, in which the value system of the West is rooted. This is the cause of the moral decadence in present-day society in the West.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

C'mon Tony. You know I don't do God prophecies or messengers.

I was hoping for something more...I don't know...evident?

That is part of the reason SalixIncendium, as the answer lays in what God has told us we need to do, neglect of that advice is unfolding in the events we are currently facing.

Numerous times we have posted the requirements for the peace and security of all humanity, that we are one people on one planet, here is but one piece of advice that has been previously given, which if it had been implemented, we would not have had the current conflicts. The United Nations was a start, but Vetoed voting and insufficient mandate makes the UN a toothless tiger.

"...The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation." – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 164.

Part of the discussions needed was the setting of Nations boundaries and disarmament.

I can offer the path to peace was clearly given. Warnings of the neglect of that advice clearly mapped what the world has faced since the late 1800's, I can say for the last 40 years I have been reading what is going to happen to humaity and what we currently face is already in print.

Regards Tony

 

[SalixIncendium]

Here is an article I found that is more to the point we were discussing, the downfall of society.

The ultimate reason for Western society's crisis of morals is, as I have pointed out elsewhere,(2) the decline of the Christian faith, in which the value system of the West is rooted. It is striking that at the very time when Friedrich Nietzsche announced the "death of God", and, in its consequence, the collapse of the moral order (a process which would inevitably result in what he called "nihilism"(3) ), Bahá'u'lláh proclaimed this apocalyptic event:

To continue reading: The New morality

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
This is related to what I said about The Waltons. The Waltons represents values that society had back when most people were Christians who adhered to the Bible. Over the course of the 20th century, and now continuing into the 21st century, there has been a steady decline of the Christian faith, in which the value system of the West is rooted. This is the cause of the moral decadence in present-day society in the West.

That is part of the reason SalixIncendium, as the answer lays in what God has told us we need to do, neglect of that advice is unfolding in the events we are currently facing.

Numerous times we have posted the requirements for the peace and security of all humanity, that we are one people on one planet, here is but one piece of advice that has been previously given, which if it had been implemented, we would not have had the current conflicts. The United Nations was a start, but Vetoed voting and insufficient mandate makes the UN a toothless tiger.

"...The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation." – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 164.

Part of the discussions needed was the setting of Nations boundaries and disarmament.

I can offer the path to peace was clearly given. Warnings of the neglect of that advice clearly mapped what the world has faced since the late 1800's, I can say for the last 40 years I have been reading what is going to happen to humaity and what we currently face is already in print.

Regards Tony

I'm a bit disappointed neither of you could have a serious discourse with me without throwing the Baha'i Faith in my face.