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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jos, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Of course not. Did you not check my religious identity? I'm a Jew. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of the messiah. According to Christians, he will fulfill them "next time he comes." Well, I could say I'm the messiah, and I will fulfill the prophecies next time I come!!! Makes no sense.
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is also a good question. My belief is that one of satan's most successful tricks is to get people to disobey God.....its what he has done from the beginning. He can't make us do anything....but he can provide the circumstances that will facilitate disobedience on our part. He will tempt us by creating a seeming dilemma. It worked with Eve...its still working for him now.

    The trinity is a doctrine that was introduced into Catholicism in the 4th century. The devil knows God's laws as well as we do. He even quoted scripture to Jesus when tempting him, but as we saw even then, all the devil could do was present a psychological reason for humans to become disobedient. He can only make appeals to ego.

    God's law stated in the First Commandment...."You must not have any other gods besides me". (Exodus 20:3) Understanding that Jehovah was a singular entity according to the Jewish Shema, (Deuteronomy 6:4) putting another god in his place was a breach of the first and most important Commandment. This was in fact blasphemy that incurred the death penalty. Can you see what the devil accomplished? He has all of Christendom breaking God's law, but imagining that they are not......which is why the "many are said to be "workers of lawlessness"...it is the reason why Jesus rejects them...having NEVER known those people. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Paul also provided a reason why people accept a lie as a substitute for truth...

    2 Thessalonians 2:9-12......"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

    This is how the devil works. Those who want to believe the lie are free to do so.....but it won't end well for them. It was demonstrated by the Jews who were misled into murdering their own Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39)
     
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  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not that I want to bombard you with details or anything :D but have you ever checked out the other side of this argument?

    Here is a list of prophesies that were fulfilled in Jesus....

    "(10) OUTSTANDING PROPHECIES CONCERNING JESUS AND THEIR FULFILLMENT

    Prophecy Event Fulfillment

    Gen. 49:10 Born of the tribe of Judah Luke 3:23-33; Matt. 1:2-16; Heb. 7:14;

    Psalm. 132:11 From the family of David son of Jesse.
    Matt. 1:1, 6-16;

    Isa. 9:7; Mt 9:27; 15:22; Isa 11:1, 10 Mt 20:30, 31;

    Mt 21:9, 15; 22:42; Mark 10:47, 48; Luke 1:32; 2:4; Acts 2:29-31; Ac 13:22, 23; Rom. 1:3; 15:8, 12

    Mic. 5:2 Born in Bethlehem Luke 2:4-11; John 7:42

    Isa. 7:14 Born of a virgin Matt. 1:18-23;

    Luke 1:30-35

    Jer. 31:15 Babes killed after his birth
    Matt. 2:16-18

    Hos. 11:1 Called out of Egypt Matt. 2:15

    Mal. 3:1; 4:5; Way prepared before Matt. 3:1-3; 11:10-14;

    Isa. 40:3 Mt 17:10-13; Mark 1:2-4; Luke 1:17, 76; 3:3-6; Lu 7:27; John 1:20-23; 3:25-28;

    Dan. 9:25 Appeared as Messiah Presented himself

    at end of 69 “weeks” for baptism and was

    anointed on schedule

    in 29 C.E. (Luke 3:1, 21, 22)

    Isa. 61:1, 2 Commissioned Luke 4:18-21

    Isa. 9:1, 2 Ministry caused people in Naphtali and Zebulun to see great light Matt. 4:13-16

    Ps. 78:2 Spoke with illustrations Matt. 13:11-13, 31-35

    Isa. 53:4 Carried our sicknesses Matt. 8:16, 17

    Ps. 69:9 Zealous for Jehovah’s house Matt. 21:12, 13;

    Mark 11:15-18; Luke 19:45, 46; John 2:13-17

    Isa. 42:1-4 As Jehovah’s servant, would not wrangle in streets.

    Matt. 12:14-21

    Isa. 53:1 Not believed in John 12:37, 38;

    Rom. 10:11, 16

    Zech. 9:9; Entry into Jerusalem Matt. 21:1-9;

    Ps. 118:26 on colt of a donkey; Mark 11:7-11;

    hailed as king and the one coming in Jehovah’s name Luke 19:28-38;

    John 12:12-15

    Isa. 28:16; Rejected, but becomes chief cornerstone Matt. 21:42, 45, 46;

    Isa 53:3; Acts 3:14; 4:11;

    Ps. 69:8; 1 Pet. 2:7

    Ps 118:22, 23

    Isa. 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of stumbling Luke 20:17, 18;

    Rom. 9:31-33; 1 Pet. 2:8

    Ps. 41:9; 109:8 One apostle unfaithful; betrays Matt. 26:47-50;

    John 13:18, 26-30; Joh 17:12; 18:2-5; Acts 1:16-20

    Zech. 11:12 Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver Matt. 26:15; 27:3-10;
    Mark 14:10, 11

    Zech. 13:7 Disciples scatter Matt. 26:31, 56; John 16:32

    There are many more....
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Ps. 2:1, 2 Roman powers and leaders act together against the anointed of Jehovah.

    Matt. 27:1, 2; Luke 23:10-12; Mark 15:1, 15; Acts 4:25-28

    Isa. 53:8 Tried and condemned Matt. 26:57-68;

    Mt 27:1, 2, 11-26;

    John 18:12-14,

    Joh 18:19-24, 28-40;

    Joh 19:1-16

    Ps. 27:12 Use of false Matt. 26:59-61;

    witnesses Mark 14:56-59

    Isa. 53:7 Silent before Matt. 27:12-14;

    accusers Mark 14:61; 15:4, 5;

    Luke 23:9; John 19:9

    Ps. 69:4 Hated without cause Luke 23:13-25;

    John 15:24, 25;

    1 Pet. 2:22

    Isa. 50:6; Struck, spit on Matt. 26:67; 27:26, 30;

    Mic. 5:1 John 18:22; 19:3

    Ps. 22:16, ftn. Impaled Matt. 27:35;

    Mark 15:24, 25;

    Luke 23:33;

    John 19:18, 23;

    Joh 20:25, 27

    Ps. 22:18 Lots cast for Matt. 27:35;

    garments John 19:23, 24

    Isa. 53:12 Numbered with sinners Matt. 26:55, 56; 27:38;

    Luke 22:37

    Ps. 22:7, 8 Reviled while on Matt. 27:39-43;

    stake Mark 15:29-32

    Ps. 69:21 Given vinegar and Matt. 27:34, 48;

    gall Mark 15:23, 36

    Ps. 22:1 Forsaken by God to Matt. 27:46;

    enemies Mark 15:34

    Ps. 34:20; No bones broken John 19:33, 36 Ex. 12:46

    Isa. 53:5; Pierced Matt. 27:49;

    Zech. 12:10 John 19:34, 37;

    Rev. 1:7

    Isa. 53:5, 8, Dies sacrificial death Matt. 20:28;

    Isa 53:11, 12 to carry away sins John 1:29;

    and open way to Rom. 3:24; 4:25;

    righteous standing 1 Cor. 15:3;

    with God Heb. 9:12-15;

    1 Pet. 2:24;

    1 John 2:2

    Isa. 53:9 Buried with the rich Matt. 27:57-60;

    John 19:38-42

    Jonah 1:17; In grave for parts of Matt. 12:39, 40; 16:21;

    Jon 2:10 three days, then Mt 17:23; 20:19;

    resurrected Mt 27:64;

    Mt 28:1-7;

    Acts 10:40;

    1 Cor. 15:3-8

    Ps. 16:8-11, Raised before Acts 2:25-31; 13:34-37

    ftn. corruption

    Ps. 2:7 Jehovah declares him Matt. 3:16, 17;

    His Son by spirit Mark 1:9-11;

    begettal and by Luke 3:21, 22;

    resurrection Acts 13:33; Rom. 1:4;

    Heb. 1:5; 5:5"

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101990137
     
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  5. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    It's OK
    But those miracles and healings are bringing people into the church, aren't they?
    By faith in this context, you mean trust?
    I guess I fall into the first category...
    But some of the Christians who accept evolution do give Him the credence and believe that He deserves it for setting the whole process in motion...
    The Christians who accept evolution do believe in God
    Are YEC also deceived?
    Yeah free will isn't really freeing especially since one's actions can affect others also
    So Christians shouldn't go into politics and they shouldn't defend their country if it's being attacked? And if there shouldn't be any bloodshed, should they engage in self defense if they're attacked?
    I've talked to Christians who participate in these holidays and they say that God redeemed the holidays for His people and they say sin is both objective and subjective so what's a sin for one person may not be a sin for another person...
    I've heard that people may not be ready to hear the gospel and that pestering them can draw them away from God, IDK...
    Thanks for answering my questions...
     
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  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Oh, I am a student of comparative religion. I've studied Christianity as well as all the world's religions (I'm currently trying to get myself to read the Upanishads, but the eyes give me trouble). Of course, when I read about Christianity, it is an intellectual curiosity, quite unlike how I study Torah and Judaism for spiritual growth.

    As to the prophecies, there are two points.

    ONE

    Many of the prophecies just aren't messianic at all. We Jews just read them differently. For example, Isaiah 53 is a metaphor for Israel. If you read the previous passages, you will see that the servant is repeatedly referred to as Jacob/Israel.

    Here is another obvious one. Matthew 2:15 refers to Jesus coming home from being a refugee in Egypt as being the fulfillment of Hosea's prophecy "Out of Egypt I called my son," as if it were a messianic prophecy.

    But let's look at Hosea 11:1 -- When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. It is OBVIOUS that this refers to the Exodus from Egypt by all of Israel, and is not a messianic prophecy at all!!!!

    TWO:

    You included "prophecies" in the New Testament. The New Testament is not an authoritative source for me.

    THREE:

    There are prophecies Jesus did not fulfill. It is an all or nothing deal. I don't get to say, "Well, I'm the messiah, but I will fulfill the prophecies the next time I come." Either the individual will fulfill all the prophecies thus proving he is the messiah, or he is not the messiah. Prophecies Jesus did not fulfill:
    1. Bringing all Jews back to the Land
    2. Bringing earthly world peace
    3. Ruling from Jerusalem

    First, I want you to know straight away that I have no problems with you being a Christian. No one needs to be a Jew. Be the best Christian you can be.

    However, if you REALLY want to look into the other side, as I have looked into the other side, may I suggest you visit Tovia Singer's website (which is really designed to answer questions by Jews, since we don't aspire to convert Christians). https://outreachjudaism.org/category/articles/ Or you can go to any of his many you tube debates with Christians and especially Jews being snookered into conversion. Here is a good video to start:



    Again, no pressure. If you want to believe that Jesus is the Christ, then okay. I'm not in this to convert you. Do not feel obligated to inquire further.
     
    #406 IndigoChild5559, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If Jesus said that the devil was going to "plant" seeds of fake Christianity in all the world, then what if he is bringing people into his counterfeit by deception? Don't you think he has an agenda behind presenting himself as an "angel of light"?

    Look how he turned the Jews away from Jesus.....he used lies and deception and corrupt men who were only too willing to do his bidding. This guy was making them look bad. (Matthew 23)

    The bulk of God's nation lost their place in the Kingdom. This notion makes Jews very angry because they pride themselves on being 'sons of Abraham'. John the Baptist said that God could produce children of Abraham from the rocks. (Matthew 3:7-10) Being "Jewish" by birth was no longer important because God changed what it meant to be "Jewish".

    Paul wrote at Romans 2:28-29..."For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

    God had fulfilled his promise to Abraham by producing his Messiah as he said he would, and now he would abandon that wayward nation as incorrigible. (Matthew 23:37-39)

    That's what faith is....absolute, unreserved trust. We earn God's trust...he earns ours. It's a beautiful friendship. He has never let me down in my whole life. But that doesn't mean I have lived a charmed life...it simply means that God has seen me through the hard times with my faith intact. He always gave me the right advice.

    Why do you say that? I am thinking that you probably fall into the second or third category, otherwise why would you be here asking all these great questions?

    Perhaps its more like the thorns choking out the seed and not allowing it to grow? Do you have pressure from family to conform to your Pentecostal upbringing? Is it a church you would have chosen yourself? What if you told them what you are telling us? Do they know how you feel?

    If you do the research, then you will find that the "macro" part of evolution is a figment of science's imagination. They have no more proof for that scenario than we have for direct creation. For those who accept the Bible as the word of God, there can be no putting your own spin on scripture to make it more acceptable to yourself. You must take God's word on faith that if he said he created all the different "kinds", then that is what he did.

    Did 'adaptation' create all the different varieties within each kind....perhaps that part is true because science can actually prove that adaptation takes place. But never have they observed it taking any organism outside of its taxonomic family. You can't use adaptation to prove macro-evolution....not without a heap of guesswork....and wishful thinking.

    What does it mean to "believe" in God?

    James 2:19-22....."You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works"

    There is more to "believing" than just 'believing'. One involves the mind, the other involves actions prompted by the mind. You can't have one without the other.

    Absolutely. Why do you think this debate has gone on for so long? Some YEC's will even tell you that there were dinosaurs on the ark! :confused: They stick to their 24 hour day scenario in Genesis as if the earth and everything on it is merely 6,000 years old. We know that is nonsense.

    The "days" in Genesis were obviously not 24 hour days and if you look at the Hebrew word for "day" (Yohm) it can mean a literal day or an extended period of time, as we would use the word like "in our grandfather's day".....this is not referring to a literal 24 day and neither does Genesis.

    If those "days" were millions of earth years in length, then the Earth can be as old as science claims. Genesis 1:1 is a statement about the creation of the universe. There is no timeframe between verse 1 and the rest of the chapter. So the creation of the universe could have taken place well before God chose to prepare the Earth for habitation. The creative days were filled with God's activity and he obviously planned his work to take place within a certain period, so that at the completion of each stage, he was able to express his satisfaction with his accomplishments thus far. The only day that has no declaration of satisfaction, is the 7th. We believe it is still current.....it has not yet ended. Paul made reference to it.

    That is the lesson. :) Free will is a blessing only when the will of others is not overstepped.....as if one person's will is more important than another's.

    If all are subject to God's will, then everything works beautifully. He was to be the arbiter of all our conduct, setting the rules so that we would never treat our fellow humans with disrespect. No human life is less valuable to God because Christ died for everyone. But the value of Christ's blood is not applied to those who don't want it. We have to qualify for it as part of our citizenship requirements.

    Self-defense is not the same as defending a country. Christians hold citizenship in God's Kingdom, so there is no Kingdom on earth that we would defend by killing other human beings. So many of the wars fought in the modern era do not involve defending one's own country. Many of them involve going to a foreign land and killing their enemies. The weapons used indiscriminately kill innocent people, and God would never sanction such a thing.

    If Jesus said to 'love our enemies' then there should be no reason to kill anyone. If someone was to attack us personally or to attack a family member, we would rightly defend them and ourselves, but it would be a determination only to stop the attack, not to deliberately cause harm or murder.

    That is called justification...according to Paul, it doesn't wash. When Israel tried to mix God's worship with Baal worship, God punished them.

    If Christians want to honor God or his Christ, then why choose a day dedicated to a false god? Its insulting, especially if you carry on with the original customs and just put a "Christian" label on it. God saw the original and what the people did whilst worshipping their false gods. Do you think he approves of it? I can't see how.
    Paul said it was like mixing righteousness and lawlessness....Christ and the devil.

    LOL....another excuse. If Jesus commanded it and he said he was going to back it, then why offer excuses for why you can't do it? You have the most powerful force in the Universe working with you. Do you think Jesus "pestered" people? What did he say to his disciples?

    Matthew 10:11-15...."Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

    Jesus sent them out to preach "good news", not to pester people. The political system under which they lived was far from ideal. The people needed to hear that their Messiah had come....so the message was offered, and if it was well received, the disciples were to stay and impart that good news to those ones...but if they were turned away, the disciples were to simply shake the dust off their feet and move on to the next house. (Acts 20:20) We do this work and it is amazing how many people want answers to their questions. The churches just don't have them. We get thousands of requests for Bible studies just on our website. JW.ORG

    Again, this is the result of 46 years of thorough research, so hopefully the details are as important to you as they are to me. ;)

    The Bible answers all our questions. If it is God's truth, then it must.
     
  8. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    Was it introduced to help bring pagans into the church? And with respect to Jesus' divinity what do you make of Phillipians 2:5-11?
    Wasn't Jesus being murdered part of God's plan to give everyone salvation and everlasting life? So didn't the Jews actually do what God wanted?
    Idk, I'm just confused about everything concerning God and religion right now, my family would be kinda upset but understanding if I told them I wanted to leave. IDK, I guess I might not have chosen it... everything's just kinda confusing right now
    OK understood.
    So salvation is also works based?
    How were the dinosaurs destroyed? In the flood?
    If you trace the genealogies of Adam to Jesus you'll get 4,000 years and then add 2,000 from Jesus to now and you'll get 6,000 years or so I've heard
    OK interesting, where did Paul make reference to it?
    Fair enough but what about times when God took away human free will like with hardening Pharaoh's heart or how He softens and hardens hearts at will?
    Makes sense but why shouldn't Christians go into politics? Doesn't God say that they war against powers and principalities in high places? Which indicates that they need to get into places of power and change them so that they are under God's power?
    I tried saying that to the person and they said I was being judgemental and that everyone's relationship with God is different. Do you think there's anything wrong with listening to secular music as long as it doesn't have cursing or sexually inappropriate lyrics? And do you see anything wrong with watching movies and TV shows as long as they don't promote sin?
    Well they said that by preaching to unsaved family members over and over again it actually annoyed them and drew them away from God.
    I thought everyone was deserving of hearing the gospel?
    Yes they are thanks.
     
  9. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    Another question: with respect to Jesus' divinity what do you make of Phillipians 2:5-11?
     
  10. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    @Salvador I'm sorry for reporting your post when I first made this thread. I didn't mean to, I thought you were a spam bot. I hope you can forgive me.
     
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  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I believe that Jesus Christ was "God," but not "God the Father." I don't believe it's possible for someone (not even God ;)) to be His own father or his own Son. I definitely believe that Jesus Christ was divine. Here's how I answered this question for someone else a long time ago:

    My Church's first "Article of Faith" states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. While we believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.

    We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is. They both have bodies of flesh and bone (although, until His birth in Bethlehem, Jesus Christ was a spirit being only).

    The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical substance or essence. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshiping the other.

    Most Christians also use the words "co-equal" and "co-eternal" to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.
     
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  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Boy, how to answer this question and not turn this post into a full-length book. :confused: I was born and raised a "Mormon," but my parents were very open-minded and encouraged me to be, as well. Even though I was taken to church every Sunday ever since I was a very small child, my parents always made me feel free to question and to doubt. I was never told, in essence, "Just believe it; that's how it is. And if you don't believe it, we'll disown you and you'll end up going to Hell." So question I did. Even as a teenager, I had an interest in learning about the differences between the various Christian denominations, and that interest has never faded. Very early on, I came to wonder about the Trinity and how God could be three-in-one like my Catholic friend said He was. As I got older, I learned about the Nicene Creed and I compared what it said to what the Bible said and to what I had always believed. I studied about how it came to be written and why. (That's your next question, so I won't elaborate on it at this point.) Anyway, as I learned about the various beliefs of all the different Christian denominations, I couldn't help but wonder why there was so much disagreement between them. It wasn't just the Trinity; a lot of other doctrines came into play, too.

    Anyway, it is our belief that Jesus Christ actually did establish His Church as part of His earthly ministry. We also believe that after His death and after the deaths of His Apostles, men changed the doctrines and organization of His Church. It certainly didn't happen overnight, but it did happen. Paul even prophesied of it. Paul also prophesied of an eventual restoration of all things that had been lost. Finally, we believe that Jesus Christ's Church could only be reestablished through the direct interaction of Jesus Christ himself. We believe that He was personally involved in reestablishing His Church and that He called a new prophet (Joseph Smith) to lead the restored Church, just as the Apostle Peter had led it after Christ's death.

    As I have learned about the actual beliefs and practices of first- and second-century Christians, I have come to realize how much Christianity changed over time. I see a huge number of parallels between the Church in Christ's day and my Church today. What has really convinced me, though, when it gets right down to it, is the Holy Ghost. I don't believe it's possible for anyone to be able to learn the truth without God himself (through the Holy Ghost) confirming to him what the truth is. Everything I have concluded to be true is something I believe God has taught me is true. The bottom line is that the doctrines taught by my church resonate with me as being true. They are in line with what I believe the Bible teaches, they are in line with what I believe the original Christian Church of Christ's day taught, and they are what I believe God has taught me through the Holy Ghost. They make sense to me.

    I don't think it was quite that simple. The Catholic Church believes, of course, that it is exactly the same church that existed in 34 A.D. after Christ's death. In reality, there were many, many different Christian groups, each teaching different things, even by the end of the first century. The Catholic Church may have ended up being the predominant one, with all of the others eventually dying out, but that doesn't mean it was the one teaching true doctrines and being organized as the original church was. In the first several centuries after Christ's death, the really educated men, the ones who essentially called the shots, all had a strong background in Greek Philosophy. Now Greek Philosophy had some very specific ideas about who and what God must be. In other words, God had to "qualify" to be God according to their standards, and if He didn't, He wasn't God. The God of the Hebrews didn't quite fit. And the fact that He supposedly had a Son further complicated things. Christianity survived by being "hellenized," which is to say that Greek neo-platonic thought infiltrated what was being taught about God. The God that the earliest Christians had worshiped changed dramatically over time.

    In 325 A.D. the First Council at Nicaea was called by the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine wasn't even a Christian at the time, but he was fed up with the contention within the Church, and wanted the matter of the nature of God to be settled once and for all. He convened the council, not the Pope. He basically told the bishops in attendance to come to a decision on the matter and make it final. After weeks of discussion, debates and arguments, they did. The nature of God was determined by a vote of men.

    I'm sure He was, but how fulfilling do you believe eternal stagnation would have been to someone who had the power to create an entire universe and populate it with billions of unique spirit children? How could God love if there was nothing for Him to love?

    Anyway, those are just my opinions. Take them for what they're worth, but I hope they were in some way helpful to you.
     
    #412 Katzpur, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I just love your questions Jos :) You need the same kind of detail that I did at your age.

    There is so much to address, I'll break it up again.

    Actually, it was introduced into an already weakened church to mask the true identity of God, making it easy for those 'Christians' to break God's law without even being fully aware of it. That is what deception accomplishes. Satan's MO is to divide and conquer.

    If you Google pagan trinities, you will find them in other unrelated religious systems, so it's something that can be traced back to ancient Babylon. Most of the core beliefs of all religions, originate from post flood Babylon. If you go back in Biblical history, after the flood, it didn't take long for humans to again get hooked by the devil. (Destroying that world was a stopgap measure to prevent humans from descending into that level of wickedness too soon as a result of direct demonic interference) It was to get his purpose back on track.

    Nimrod was Noah's great-grandson, and after God had instructed humans to spread abroad in the earth, Nimrod had other ideas, instead, he gathered followers and began building cities. (One of them was Babel) He topped off his empire with a huge tower "with its top in the heavens" in order to make a great name for himself. The outcome is recorded in Genesis 11:1-9. Those influenced by Nimrod took their corrupted ideas with them all over the world, which is why we see the same core beliefs among many belief systems. (e.g. multiplicities of gods, immortal souls, hellfire and others)

    It is believed that the trinity originated with Nimrod's family arrangement, which was morally disgusting. (A whole 'nother story) It was originally a concept that did not originate with God, but it became accepted as a foundational doctrine in a corrupted church that would hold sway for many centuries. It would have made the pagans feel right at home......but it was a lie.

    A closer examination of this scripture will reveal some things, that with a cursory reading, is not obvious.

    Some translations do not render this passage accurately, so this creates confusion.

    "5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (NWT)

    So Jesus was "existing in God's form" before he "emptied himself" to take on human form. What does that mean? What form does God have? Scripturally, "God is a spirit"....so logically and scripturally all beings who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits, so existing in God's form simply meant that Jesus was formerly a spirit. He voluntarily gave up that form to become a human.

    He "gave no consideration to a seizure...that he should be equal with God". Many translation render this part inaccurately to suggest that Jesus was God, but in the Greek, it reads the opposite....he was never "seized" by the idea of equality with God. It was unthinkable! Everything he taught makes this apparent.

    He "humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death" Obedient to whom?
    How does one part of God "become obedient" to an equal part of himself?

    Then we find that on completion of his mission that God "exalted him to a superior position" and "gave him a name that is above every other name." Think about that. How does God "exalt" an equal part of himself when he already occupies the most exalted position in the Universe?

    And how does God give a part of himself a name that is above the one he already has as "The Most High over all the earth"? (Psalm 83:18 KJV) Does that make sense to you?

    And in all of this, "every tongue" was going to "openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord" (not God) "to the glory of God the Father". So instead of accepting glory for himself, all he ever did was for the glory of his God and Father.

    This scripture in no way promotes the trinity.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is true that the "seed" was going to be dealt a "heel wound" (something from which he would recover) according to the prophesy in Genesis 3:15. But there was nothing that the Jews did to Jesus that was necessary or even legal. He was going to give his life, but how he suffered in doing so is a testimony to his love for his God and for mankind...and how much the Jews had strayed from the laws God gave them. They cursed themselves and their children with the blood of Christ (Matthew 27:25) They got their wish. :(

    What they did, God foresaw (as he can see the future) but the malice and their attitude was already established by their history as Jesus said...."Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to herhow often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it." (Matthew 23:37)

    These were serial offenders when it came to their refusal to be corrected. Instead of listening to God's prophets, they silenced them.

    The confusion you feel is carefully orchestrated....many are experiencing it. They have the same sort of questions and are often made to feel guilty for asking them. We should be free to ask anything about God. He wants us to get to know him....but how do you gain such knowledge from people who have only a shallow acquaintance with him? Or whose experience is tainted by satanic counterfeits.

    Salvation is not assured just because we profess a belief in Jesus. For the merits of Jesus' sacrifice to apply to us individually, we have to prove ourselves worthy. Anyone can say "I believe", but its your actions that prove it...talk is cheap.

    James 2:15-18..."If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed, but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead
    18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”


    The dinosaurs were long extinct before humans ever walked the earth. Perhaps they served a purpose for a time and then God had finished with them and allowed them to die out naturally? He doesn't mention them probably because they were never going to be part of man's existence anyway? Something to discover later perhaps.....? :)

    Remember that humankind were the very last of God's creation, so mankind has not been around as long as most other creatures. If the creative days were millions of years long, then even other creatures who were brought into existence earlier in that 6th creative period would be much older than we are. That would include the dinosaurs.

    Add to that the flood of Noah's day and we have a water canopy surrounding the earth that God used to flood the earth, (2 Peter 3:5-6) removing something that may well have shielded us from a good deal of radiation from the sun, and altering the carbon dating results. It may also explain why human lifespans were drastically reduced after the flood.....from hundreds of years to a mere three score and ten.

    We, as earth's latest inhabitants may not be as old as we appear to science.

    If we go back to Genesis and read from the Tanach, it says in Genesis 2:3..."And God blessed the seventh day and He hallowed it, for thereon He abstained from all His work that God created to do."

    The Hebrew word translated "abstained" in that verse is "shabbath" which means to "cease".
    You don't see a present tense for his resting but "for thereon He abstained from all His work "....so his resting was from that time forward, not something he just did back then on that one day.

    Now, consider Jesus’ words to his opposers who criticized him for healing on the Sabbath, which they argued was a form of work. Jesus said to them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” (John 5:16, 17) So if God was still "working", what did Jesus mean? How does God work on his Sabbath? The only "work" God was "resting" (or abstaining from) from was his creative work. He was till working in every other way, as was Jesus, for the salvation of mankind during his Sabbath rest.

    The Sabbath for the Jews was a day devoted to rest and worship. It demonstrated that there was nothing more important to do on that day. But it was only ever given to the Jews, not Christians.

    Paul's reference is interesting....When quoting Genesis 2:2 concerning God’s rest, Paul wrote under inspiration: “We who have exercised faith do enter into the rest. just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They will not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world.” . . . ."Therefore, since it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience." (Heb. 4:3, 4, 6, 9) So the seventh day was ongoing in Paul’s day. How much longer was that day of rest to continue?

    He said: Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, for fear anyone should fall in the same pattern of disobedience.” (Hebrews 4:11)

    By our disobedience we too can miss out on the benefits of the Sabbath Rest Day of God. It will end when God's first purpose has been achieved at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. (Ephesians 1:9-11; Isaiah 55:11; Revelation 20:6)
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    God's dealings with Pharaoh were a revealing insight into this ruler's personality. As Pharaoh, he was viewed as a god in Egypt. He did not see Israel's God as better than he was, so when Moses and Aaron came before him to request that Israel be allowed to go into the wilderness to serve their God, he was a bit miffed. So Moses performed some miracles to show Pharaoh God's power.....Pharaoh then had his magicians do some magic of their own.

    So when he refused to allow Israel to go, God brought the 10 plagues on Egypt...each one was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's many gods. After each plague, Pharaoh relented and said he would let Israel go if their God stopped the plague. Each time Jehovah stopped it, and Pharaoh then went back on his word. At any time Pharaoh could have stopped the affliction of his people but he was too stubborn and proud.

    God said to Pharaoh...."For at this time I am sending all my blows against your heart and upon your servants and your people, to the end that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth. For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth. 17 Are you still behaving arrogantly against my people by not sending them away? " (Exodus 9:14-17)

    It wasn't God who hardened Pharaoh's heart....it was that God did not prevent his heart from being like it already was. The last plague touched Pharaoh himself with the death of his firstborn son and heir....the next god of Egypt....only then did he relent and let Israel go. But it didn't last long. He rallied his army in an attempt to get them all back. He paid with his own life and the lives of all his men, still wanting to gain the upper hand.

    God can soften hearts when his purpose requires it...or he can let them be when he needs to demonstrate something from which his people can learn.

    Who rules this world? Jesus said that satan was the "ruler of this world" but that he no power over Jesus. (John 14:30) Satan told Jesus that "all the kingdoms of the world" had been delivered to him and that he could give authority to rule to anyone he wished. (Luke 4:5-8) "The whole world lies in the power of the evil one" according to 1 John 5:19. What part of the world does this leave out?

    Jesus told us to be no part of that world. When he was on earth, the Romans were oppressing the Jews and some were plotting an overthrow. Jesus did not ever tell his disciples to become part of satan's ruling authority. (John 18:36) Nor did he ever advocate fighting against it. God would deal with all of that. (Daniel 2:44) If we are citizens of God's Kingdom, we can't be citizens of satan's kingdom, yet we are to obey them as long as they don't ask us to break God's laws.

    People will always find excuses to do what they want. Justification is common....but they will never justify their disobedience to God.

    When we look at the entertainment industry, it not difficult to see it as a platform for the devil. Music, TV, movies, computer games...can all be used for his deceptive purposes....but it doesn't mean we can't listen to music or watch TV or go to the movies or even play video games....we just have to be selective.
    Not all of it is contaminated with immorality, bad language or spiritistic themes.....but most of it is. Sometimes it means walking out of a movie or turning off the TV if we find ourselves questioning its content. I always like the thought that if Jesus was sitting beside me would he approve of what I was watching? That is always a good test.

    Preaching isn't just words. We are not to bombard our family members, Bible bashing them to death! :eek:

    1 Peter 3:1-3 is a good example of preaching without speaking....."In the same way, you wives, be in subjection to your husbands, so that if any are not obedient to the word, they may be won without a word through the conduct of their wives, 2 because of having been eyewitnesses of your chaste conduct together with deep respect."

    We have had many unbelieving mates join their spouses in worship just by the respectful way they treated their mates. If living by Bible principles made a drastic difference to the way they normally behaved, then that was a good witness in itself. It changed their mate for the better.

    Our conduct and good example speak way louder than we can with mere words. Allowing nature to speak is also a wonderful way to let God talk to people without words. Jesus offered his truth to people...he never forced it on them. We have to respect each person's right to make their own choices. That includes our family members.

    Yes...to hear it if they wish. If they do not wish, it is their right to turn us away. We are not to fret about that, we are just to continue on our way. But when we return another time, we may get a different response, as has been our experience many times. Something happens in the intervening period and now they want to know what we have to say about those things. That is how it was with me. I always turned JW's away because I didn't think they had anything of value to give to me.....but when I lost my father, I wanted some answers. They were the only ones who had any. Now I have them too. It makes me look to the future with confidence.

    That's reassuring. Thank you for reading my very detailed responses. Please let me know if it is too much. :oops:
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it didn't work for my wife because she didn't know what was good for her. She used to eat things on the basis that she deserved good things to eat and became very heavy because of it and that was not good for her health.
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God is one so the Trinity does not provide an actual relationship.
     
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  18. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I'd suppose you'd have to know what is good for yourself vs doing what simply feels good to do at the moment.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Right. You have to think forward to the eventual consequences.
     
  20. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    You skipped over an important one.....why presuppose a god?
     
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