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Questions...

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Well since humans have a tendency towards confirmation bias (confirming what we already believe) then I guess God answered " yes, BOM is true".
And confirmation bias works both ways, so how do you account for the fact that 2/3 of Mormons today are first-generation converts? Obviously something besides confirmation bias is involved.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
First question for people of a Christian persuasion:
Why did God create anything at all if He existed by Himself in perfect relationship as a Holy Trinity having everything He would ever want or need?
Who says God is a "Holy Trinity" in the first place? And how could anyone other than God himself even know what He might want?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I guess it's like a parent and child. If a mother has a child, by nature, she would want to take care of that child. They are both connected with one another.

With a creator it's pretty much the same (if going by logic). If you create something, in many cases, you want to be with or use or so have you with your creation. It's with anything, really. A child draws something and he wants to keep it or gets mad when someone takes his art.

I would say ideally, if the creator was separate in his own nature, he wouldn't have characteristics, wants, and needs like that of humans. However, without a creator (or sense of origin), a lot of people can't find meaning in life.

So, there needs to be some connection from creator to creation. It's connecting oneself with their origin in order to live their present. That's only because he is a creator. If he wasn't, just a god, then, yeah, I'd be asking the same question as you.

Bad analogy. It would be like a mother who didn’t have any children and even the concept of children didn’t exist,yet she wanted to share her love for something that did not exist,
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Bad analogy. It would be like a mother who didn’t have any children and even the concept of children didn’t exist,yet she wanted to share her love for something that did not exist,

One doesnt need to have a child or concept to want to give her share her love. Thats why some women want to have children because they want to give their love.

I'd assume god already had a concept of creation he just figured to create something to share his love.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So the Bible was wrong when it said that the Jews were God's chosen people?
No he is correct. We often reply by asking the person what they mean, "Chosen for what?" Most people assume that being God's chosen means we think we are better than other people, that God loves us more, etc. Actually what it means is Chosen to Accept Additional Responsibilities as God's priestly people. Things are required of us that are not required of others. Sure we get some benefits, a Promised Land, etc., but we also get a lot of persecution. As Tevye says in Fiddler on the Roof, "I know we are your chosen people, but once in a while, can't you choose someone else??"
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think God analogous to Math, something which we ponder and discover but cannot fully comprehend. I do not think it is productive or good to carve up Genesis and torture it into a science text. That is a line there that should not be crossed.
I agree to both your statements. Also, another thing about Math is that it is a bonafied reality even though it is entirely abstract.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Sorry Jos, been sidetracked on other threads.....so to answer your questions...this is how we see things.....
It's OK.
If God had simply allowed the now imperfect humans to live and made a new batch of sinless ones, imagine where that would have led? If the new batch had remained sinless and the old batch stayed as they were, then the human race would have become a 'mish-mash' of sinful and sinless individuals. How would that have achieved anything or answered satan's bold accusations?

Or if God had wiped out all three rebels and started again....what was to stop another "satan" (resistor) from demanding a response to the devil's accusations? Those issues had to be settled once and for all. So right there in Eden, God uttered his first prophesy in Genesis 3:15. The players in this prophesy remained a mystery for thousands of years but as they got closer to their fulfillment, God released more and more information to clarify his long range plans to rescue Adam's children from the sin they inherited from him. He would provide a "seed" who would deal the devil a mortal head wound, but not until satan had delivered a heel wound. As time went on, things became clearer and clearer. (Proverbs 4:18)
Understood.
Paul likened the miracles as something to attract spiritual "children" .....he said that the miracles would give way to more mature aspects of spirituality..."faith, hope and love". They did not have the complete word of God back then, but once that complete word was in the hands of Christ's disciples (i.e. the Hebrew scriptures along with the gospels written by the apostles as well as the letters of Paul and others) they would have a fuller understanding of God's purpose.
I understand but people who practice tongues and spiritual gifts are deceived?
Faith is a requirement, so how can you have faith in someone you don't know? We have to believe that he is.....not that he might exist....but to "know" that he does.
But if you knew He existed then there wouldn't be a need for faith, faith is usually required in the absence of knowledge.
He made us to be incentive-oriented.
But if we're incentive oriented doesn't that mean that we're doing it out if selfishness and self interest and if God's rewards are the main motivator for a relationship with Him doesn't that make it fake and shallow rather than real since we don't really love Him for who He is but what He can do for us?
Evolution on the scale that science claims is a deception designed to make God go away.
But many Christians accept evolution and see no contradiction between it and their faith
It was part of his original mandate. He had to settle the issue of who is the world's better ruler, or else just wipe them out and start again with no guarantee that it wouldn't happen all over again, and again. It would be admitting that free will was a mistake.....so was it a mistake? Or is it a gift to appreciate? Was it a curse to be eliminated? By our own choices we would show God that we either appreciate his gift.....or demonstrate what an ugly curse it really is. This is two sides of one coin......heads or tails? Our choice.
Given the state of the world, I'm starting to think free will is a curse.
God is a spirit. He also has a powerful impersonal force that emanates from him that he uses to accomplish his will...his holy spirit. He can give it to whomever he deems needs it, or is worthy of it. As in the case of Moses, he gives it in due measure. Does that sound like its a person. People were filled with holy spirit....that would be odd if the person that is God could fill 120 people all at once as occurred at Pentecost.
I've heard Pentecostals talk about personal experiences of the Holy Spirit and speaking to Him as though He were a person... what do you say to that? They say they have a personal relationship with Him. How can they have a relationship with something that's impersonal?
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
The creation came out of the trinity

The trinity results at the creation. :)
That's a contradiction. How can the creation and Trinity both result from each other... This contradicts what most Christians believe which is that the Trinity was responsible for the creation not the other way around. If Trinity resulted from the creation then that means that God's divinity is dependent upon something which really wouldn't make Him divine.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
All sects of Christianity conflict with all other sects of Christianity, Jos. That's why there are over 40,000 different Christian denominations and not just one Christian Church.
I heard it's actually less than 40,000 denominations but whatever.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
And confirmation bias works both ways, so how do you account for the fact that 2/3 of Mormons today are first-generation converts? Obviously something besides confirmation bias is involved.
I don't know. Are you saying Mormonism is true?
Who says God is a "Holy Trinity" in the first place? And how could anyone other than God himself even know what He might want?
Most Christians say that God is a Trinity and I was taught that God was totally sufficient in and of Himself therefore He lacked needs and wants since He already had everything He could ever need or want...
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
No he is correct. We often reply by asking the person what they mean, "Chosen for what?" Most people assume that being God's chosen means we think we are better than other people, that God loves us more, etc. Actually what it means is Chosen to Accept Additional Responsibilities as God's priestly people. Things are required of us that are not required of others. Sure we get some benefits, a Promised Land, etc., but we also get a lot of persecution. As Tevye says in Fiddler on the Roof, "I know we are your chosen people, but once in a while, can't you choose someone else??"
Do you believe Jesus is the Messiah?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I heard it's actually less than 40,000 denominations but whatever.
It may be 40,000. I've heard that seen that figure quoted. It may be 4,000 or 400. Either way, you get the point. Christianity is incredibly fragmented. Christians themselves can't even agree on what the qualifications are for someone to be considered a Christian.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I don't know. Are you saying Mormonism is true?
That's a harder question than it might appear on the surface. I believe that Mormonism is "truer" than anything else out there.

Most Christians say that God is a Trinity and I was taught that God was totally sufficient in and of Himself therefore He lacked needs and wants since He already had everything He could ever need or want...
Yes, most Christians do say that God is a Trinity. But God is not defined by what human beings say about Him. First century Christians didn't believe that God was a "Trinity." That notion didn't take root until 325 A.D. when you'd better believe it or else. And again, who's to say what God needs or wants. If He is a creator, why wouldn't He want to create? Wouldn't creating worlds without number be a source of joy for the greatest creator imaginable?
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
I believe that Mormonism is "truer" than anything else out there.
Why?
That notion didn't take root until 325 A.D. when you'd better believe it or else.
Due to the Catholic church? Why would they invent this doctrine of the Trinity though?
If He is a creator, why wouldn't He want to create? Wouldn't creating worlds without number be a source of joy for the greatest creator imaginable?
Was God completely happy before He created the universe and life?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Why?

Due to the Catholic church? Why would they invent this doctrine of the Trinity though?

Was God completely happy before He created the universe and life?
Good questions. I'm going to have to ask for your patience, though, since I've got commitments this afternoon and won't be able to respond with answers I think you deserve until this evening.
 
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Jos

Well-Known Member
Good questions. I'm going to have to ask for your patience, though, since I've got commitments this afternoon and won't be able to respond with answers I think you deserve until this evening.
It's not a problem. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Sorry, this is so long....I'll break it up. So many good questions....

I understand but people who practice tongues and spiritual gifts are deceived?

I believe that because the Bible warns that those who present "powerful works" or "signs and wonders" (once the "weeds" had taken over Christianity as Jesus foretold) are deceived by the devil, so we should be alert. If these occurred after the apostolic period was over, it would be the works of the deceiver.

Think about how logical that is. The gifts and miracles were used to draw unbelievers to Christ in the first century, but once the congregations began to flourish, and the apostles had penned their contribution to scripture, the gifts were no longer necessary. "Faith. hope and love" would now suffice.

If the devil was going to set up a counterfeit system with his own tricks to draw the unwary, then instead of wondering who are genuine ones and who are not, the proof that it is genuine has nothing to do with half-baked miracles. The devil is just a mimic.

What was to identify true Christianity was "love amongst themselves". (John 13:34-35) Christendom's fragmented condition is not God's doing. (1 Corinthians 1:10) It is the work of the deceiver.

But if you knew He existed then there wouldn't be a need for faith, faith is usually required in the absence of knowledge.

Have you seen Paul's definition of faith?
Hebrews 11:1...."Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."

Faith is strengthened by "knowing" that he exists. He is the 'reality, that is not seen'. Our expectations are not empty pipe dreams...they are "assured".

If a person has never had a personal relationship with God; never having him participate in their lives in amazing (though not miraculous) ways, it's hard to explain. But the more you put your life in his hands and follow his advice and laws, the more you experience the reality of him.

But if we're incentive oriented doesn't that mean that we're doing it out if selfishness and self interest and if God's rewards are the main motivator for a relationship with Him doesn't that make it fake and shallow rather than real since we don't really love Him for who He is but what He can do for us?

There is line where, if it is crossed, puts us exactly there. We have to have the right motivation. It's not wrong to look forward to the reward, but if our prime motivation is not love for our Father, then as a reader of hearts, he knows. Sometimes we don't, but a test will reveal how strong our faith really is. If we cave at being tested, then we never had God in the first place.

To illustrate, Jesus gave a parable on the different "soils" (hearts) where the seed of truth is planted. (Matthew 13:3-9)

Some seed fell along the roadside where birds came and ate them. (People who have a heart that is not fit to plant the seed in, so the message goes in one ear and out the other)

Some seed fell on rocky soil with no depth. The seed sprouted but because the soil was shallow, there was no room for further growth. (People who get excited about the promises of the kingdom, but discover that it requires something of them, that they are not prepared to give. The road to life is not easy and involves hardship. They want the reward but are not prepared to endure the inevitable tests that the devil will bring.)

Some fell among the thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings because they were competing for space. (These would also involve the very personal hardships that becoming a Christian can bring, such as persecution or strong opposition brought to bear by family, friends or even governments. (Matthew 10:34-36; Ephesians 6:10-13)

But there was fine soil where the seed sprouted and had space to put down roots and no matter what hardship was brought to bear, they survived to become full grown....strong and healthy.

We all fall into one of those categories. Where would you place yourself?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But many Christians accept evolution and see no contradiction between it and their faith

Perhaps it's more correct to say that many have caved in to science where they gave God no credence to accomplish what he said he did. If you prefer science to dictate your beliefs then where is God? Is he a liar? Did he create each kind of living creature, or didn't he? If you research this issue you will find that macro-evolution and YEC are on opposite extremes of one scenario. Neither extreme supports the Bible, but there is something in the middle where a correct reading of Genesis allows creation to be a very long, slow and deliberate process over millions of years. This is what we have come to appreciate. You don't have to dismiss either true science or the Bible. They are completely harmonious.

Given the state of the world, I'm starting to think free will is a curse.

Bingo! That is exactly the conclusion that we need to come to.
When God gave humans free will, it was to be exercised within the parameters that he gave them. The devil suggested that this was too restrictive and that humans would be better off making their own decisions about their life choices. He said that this would make them "like God". What has man's exercise of free will, without the restraint that God imposed at the start, resulted in? That's a no brainer. Clearly without God's rules being observed, free will is a curse. Every crime committed by humanity was an abuse of free will. Obedience to God would have made it a blessing.

I've heard Pentecostals talk about personal experiences of the Holy Spirit and speaking to Him as though He were a person... what do you say to that? They say they have a personal relationship with Him. How can they have a relationship with something that's impersonal?

The "person" they encountered, I believe, was the deceiver....the "angel of light" remember? If they are relying on miraculous displays to bolster their faith, then as Paul said, they are spiritual infants. God no longer operates like that.

The way to tell if someone's faith is a product of God's spirit, is seen in their obedience to his laws and in 'doing the will of the Father'. (Matthew 7:21-23)

What did Jesus command before he left to return to heaven? (Matthew 28:19-20)

Tick some boxes.....

Christ's disciples are to be "no part of this world" which is ruled by the devil (1 John 5:19; John 17:16) Any political involvement is supporting the devil's rulership. Any participation in the military involves training to kill other human beings. Jesus told us to love our enemies, so we cannot be part of any of that. We are to obey their laws, but no contribute to their activities especially where this involves bloodshed. (Isaiah 1:15)

We are not to participate in any kind of false worship. We are not to mix pagan festivals with Christian worship. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Have you ever researched the origins of Christmas or Easter? Neither originally had anything to do with Jesus. They were blended in centuries ago, proof that apostasy had taken place.

Like the early disciples, we are commanded to go out to our neighbors with "the good news of the kingdom" (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 10:11-14) so it's very apparent to all that the churches are basically only interested in preaching to the converted. They do not participate in the preaching work, but when you ask them why they don't, you will get some interesting excuses. (Romans 10:13-15)

Jesus said he would back that work, so it obviously can't happen without God's spirit that was dispensed through Jesus.

This is how we see things.

Till next time...
 
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