Questions...

[Muffled]

First question for people of a Christian persuasion:
Why did God create anything at all if He existed by Himself in perfect relationship as a Holy Trinity having everything He would ever want or need?

I believe God is not a trinity. The Trinity is God.

I believe God is Holy because there are people to worship Him.

I believe it is because variety is the spice of life.

I believe He never said that but I am sure some person attributed it to Him without asking Him first.

 

[Muffled]

To share that love outside of himself, is how I understand it.

I wonder if love requires someone else. One may love oneself I would think.

 

[Muffled]

But God is all-sufficient in and of Himself and wouldn't need to share anything nor should He have any wants if again, He's all-sufficient in and of Himself and already is sharing perfect love within Himself, isn't He?

I believe there again I don't recall Him saying He is all sufficient. Most likely that also is attributed to Him by someone who didn't ask.

 

[Nakosis]

If He's all-sufficient within Himself and Has all His needs and wants met within Himself then it's contradictory for Him to want anything including glory, worship, relationship etc.

Except God already has it. If you already have something there's no wanting involved.

You want entertainment because you are not being entertained. If you are being entertain, there's no want or need for it. You don't want or need what you already have.

 

[Nakosis]

I wonder if love requires someone else. One may love oneself I would think.

Do you love yourself?

I kind of, sort of like myself. Don't see a need to get infatuated about it.

 

[AxeElf]

OK but how do you know that this is how God is? Did He tell you?

Once we define God as:

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent.
3. God is omniscient.
4. God is omnipresent.
5. God is omnibenevolent.

Then learning about God is just a matter of formal reasoning, like developing theorems and proofs in geometry or mathematics.

However, the fact in question, that no action can take place without a period of time in which it occurs, is really more a question of physics than of theology.

 

[AxeElf]

This makes it sound like God needs humans in order to be God.

I don't follow your reasoning. God would need some sentient being outside of Himself in order to be perceived as God by something other than Himself, but that has nothing to do with His nature of being God itself.

 

[AxeElf]

I guess the question is whether God plus the best of all possible universes is better than God without any Universe at all.

I can't imagine that there would be any difference, and thus, either is just as good as the other.

 

[Muffled]

Do you love yourself?

I kind of, sort of like myself. Don't see a need to get infatuated about it.

I believe infatuation or romance is one kind of love. I believe the love of God is doing what is good. I try to do myself as much good as possible and avoid doing myself harm.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Doesn't Christ say in Matthew that He made them male and female since the beginning referring to Adam and Eve? And didn't the early church fathers and apostles believe that Genesis was literal history.

There is a tradition of calling things that are not as though they are. It begins with the yearly Passover celebration in which parents are ordered to tell children that they have escaped from Egypt. Its not a lie but a type of learning. Jesus is part of this tradition. Christians, similarly, are dead yet live in Christ. We regard ourselves as dead. Its not a lie, but its living in a different world. We're in the world but not of the world. Do you understand?

No, and the early church fathers are largely unknown except that they are originally pagan bishops who convert. One later church father, Augustine, says that the Genesis account is not literal. It matters not, because the fact is in a logical sense none of us are either slaves in Egypt nor dead with Christ on the cross except in faith. In faith we were dead in sin. In faith we are alive through Christ. Similarly in faith we eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The creationists come to churches to shore up the ministries of men desperate to keep control of the congregations. That's my opinion. I am pointing out creationists are not faithfully representing anything: neither Science nor Christ -- in order to uphold my point to you that your OP is not really about agnosticism versus Christianity. Its certainly valid to raise your questions about many churches which insist on physical creationism.

No I think it just points out God's creative hand

Your profile and OP indicates that you are agnostic, but I think what you actually seem like to me is a little of both agnostic and modern Christian owing to a very physical view of God. All I want to point out is that there is not a dichotomy between believing in a physical God versus agnosticism. Agnosticism and atheism are both modern terms made necessary due to the transformations of Christianity away from its philosophical underpinnings in the post reformation period.

I think creationists do believe that God is only spirit and that everyone has equal access to Him. Why do you believe these things?

We disagree. Creationists believe God physically created the world and can be proven to exist through physical means -- through science, through miracles and through complex arguments about Bible verses starting with the arbitrary assumption of a perfect Bible straight from heaven favoring Christians over other people. One biblical author says "God is no respecter of persons," but a physical God is and also one that favors Christians.

Didn't it appear with actions of people singing and adoring God?

A physical God? No. They adore a God that is invisible and nonphysical and which exists in everyone. In addition the LORD is a covenant that is an expression of God much like the Bible is an expression of God or a person is an expression of God or the Holy Spirit is an expression of God, but creationists won't tell you this. They don't have a clue about it so far in my experience. How does a person adore God if not by treating others mercifully, doing justly and walking humbly? They may sing to the LORD, but that singing must be a commitment to a life of peace and waiting upon the LORD. To these people who are oppressed and frequently overrun by enemies, their singing to the LORD is truly a sacrifice not just a game or a pleasant noise. Its not like the adoration of Krishna. Its a purposeful, intensive, creative act, a promise.

What's the difference?

I think you would be better served asking someone who is familiar with the development of the word 'God' than just anyone you meet on the internet. My view in a nutshell is that God is the rejection of gods, not very far from an agnostic position at all.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe infatuation or romance is one kind of love. I believe the love of God is doing what is good. I try to do myself as much good as possible and avoid doing myself harm.

Hmm... doing yourself good. That's a good idea.

 

[viole]

I can't imagine that there would be any difference, and thus, either is just as good as the other.

What about two Universes then? Each being the best of all possible Universes?

And, by the way, if tyere was no difference, why did He do it? Did He throw a coin because He could not decide?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Jos]

Whoa wasn't expecting so many responses, I'll respond soon.

 

[Audie]

First question for people of a Christian persuasion:
Why did God create anything at all if He existed by Himself in perfect relationship as a Holy Trinity having everything He would ever want or need?

Let Al Paccino explain it to you.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

One definition of the word 'want' is a lack or deficiency of something... There's a contradiction between a being who's all-sufficient yet lacks something.

*One* definition doesnt encompass the entire word, does it?

What if Jehovah ‘wanted to give’? Being called “a God of love”.... love moves one to share what one has. Aren’t you glad to be living?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Cause it says in the Bible not to question God in the book of Job.....

You have to be careful when using the book of Job to support an argument.

“.....one has to bear in mind when reading or quoting from the book that the arguments presented by Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar are erroneous. At times these three companions of Job state true facts, but in a setting and with an application that is wrong. Satan used this tactic against Jesus Christ when he “took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him upon the battlement of the temple and said to him: ‘If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down; for it is written, “He will give his angels a charge concerning you, and they will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone.”’ Jesus said to him: ‘Again it is written, “You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.”’”—Mt 4:5-7.”
— Excerpt from: Job, Book of — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Besides, the Bible reveals instances where humans did question God, and they suffered no repercussions. Abraham and Habakkuk come to mind. Genesis 18:23-25; Habakkuk 1:1-3.

 

[Jos]

I'm not a Christian but I see their model of the Holy Trinity and understand it differently.

How do you understand it differently?

As such there is no suggestive 'reason' for such a description of a complete natural process. The same interaction of energy that brings a man and woman together (seed in womb) to produce a child (for/by whatever means) is the same being described by אלהים. So there is not even a discernible 'will' of אלהים

So He creates for no reason?

it is a mutually conjunctive interaction between masculine and feminine that 'creates'.

So God is a man and a woman?

Suppose the very having of anything/everything one would want/need (including 'god') requires first creation itself in order to manifest 'will into existence' such things?

So He needs to create before He can know what He wants?

 

[Jos]

Some humans can't control "the deed of creation" .... maybe God went out of control for 1 second.
I mean "His thoughts materialize immediately" (that's what I have heard)

So there are times when God isn't in control of what He does?

 

[Jos]

I was thinking that He must have wanted to create the perfect Universe, do we know if it is perfect yet?

Idk, I was thinking too that every act God does must be a perfect act.

 

[Jos]

God is love. Love seeks fellowship, companionship and demonstration of love.

Praise Jesus!

Yeah but God had companionship within Himself through the perfect love and relationship of the Trinity, didn't He?