Question to Christians about Jesus' "Sinlessness"

[Ehav4Ever]

There is no reason to believe that Jesus did not keep the law of Moses perfectly. He lived under the law until he was about thirty, at which time he received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and thereafter lived by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your answer. So my next question is, when you say he kept the law perfectly do you mean the following:

1. He wore tefillin every day, except for the Sabbath and the festivals.
   • Did he follow the school of thought to wear tefillin on the intermediate days of Passover or the school of thought to not wear them during the intermediate days?
2. He had a clear a standard definition he held by for what considered work on the Sabbath and he did not do work on the Sabbath.
   • What was his source for what was work on the Sabbath and what was not?
3. He wore wore his tzitzit with the blue thread.
   • What did he consider to be a (or the) correct source for producing the blue color?
4. After every meal he praised the Creator, as Moses commanded.
   • Did he do this for all foods or only specific meals?

Thanks.

 

[bobhikes]

Questions to Christians.

I have seen a claim that Jesus was sinless or that he fulfilled the Torah. My questions are as follows.

1. Are you saying that Jesus actually did the entire 613 mitzvoth of the Torah himself?
2. If not, are you saying that while he was living, he did all the ~20 mitzvoth, from the Torah, that a regular Jewish man performs daily?
   • Did Jesus wear tefillin? If so, what type?
   • Did he include the 10 commandments in his tefillin?
   • Did he wear tzitzit? If so, with techelet or without it?
   • What animal did he use for the techelet?
   • Did he do birkat hamazon? If so, what words did he say?
   • Did he bring Qorban for every Hag? (Pesah, Shavuoth, Sukkoth)
   • Did he give a half sheqel? How many times?
3. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, performed the mitzvoth of a Nazir?
4. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, perform the mitzvoth required of a Jewish king?
   1. Did he write the two Torah scrolls that Jewish kings were required to write, per the Torah? If so, what happened to them? Did his disciples take them and use them?
5. Lastly, if none of the above are valid, or not clear, what is your definition of a sin?
   • I.e. what specific sins are you saying he did not commit?
   • What was his day to day schedule? From morning until night what non-sins was he doing?

Thanks in advance.

I like others have to question, other than first sin what proof do you have that he committed another sin. You ask if he did all this the simple answer could be I believe he did. You'll then say prove it and my response is prove he didn't.

 

[PureX]

Greetings. Thanks for your comment.

Do you mean he literally did them or that he metaphorically did them?

The spiritual transcends the literal.

Religions have laws against rape because that act does great spiritual harm to people. Both the perpetrator and the victim. The laws were written for those who do not understand this, or have not yet learned to respect it.

However, for those who do understand and respect the spirit that the law was written to protect, the law is redundant, and unnecessary. For those people, that religious law is automatically fulfilled by their devotion to the Divine Spirit within themselves and each other.

Jesus has been proclaimed the human embodiment of God's Divine Spirit, on Earth. So all law is fulfilled through that spirit within him, and to which he devoted his thoughts, actions, and very life.

Those Christians who presume he literally fulfilled every Judaic law ever written are confused, and are missing the whole point of Jesus' message. The message that God's love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity, manifesting within us, transcends the laws of man and religion by transforming us from within, spiritually. Through this spiritual transformation, the law becomes redundant, and unnecessary. We don't sin not because a law tells us not to, but because that desire does not control our hearts and minds.

For example, did he literally honor his mother and father? Did he literally go to Jerusalem every year, starting at age 20, during Passover? Did he keep the Sabbath literally and if so how did he do it? For example, did he not work and what did he consider work not done on the Sabbath to be.

To ponder these questions is to miss the point of his story, and his message.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I like others have to question, other than first sin what proof do you have that he committed another sin. You ask if he did all this the simple answer could be I believe he did. You'll then say prove it and my response is prove he didn't.

Greetings. Thank you for response. Actually, I am not trying to argue anything. I am simply asking questions and I am not asking anyone to prove what they are saying. I did not come to the RF to ask someone to prove something.

I seriously don't know the parameters of what Christians consider a sin to be and I don't understand what is meant in detail that Jesus was w/o sin.

I apologize if what I am asking makes you uncomfortable in any way.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The spiritual transcends the literal.

Jesus has been proclaimed the human embodiment of God's Divine Spirit, on Earth. So all law is fulfilled through that spirit within him, and to which he devoted his thoughts, actions, and very life.

Those Christians who presume he literally fulfilled every Judaic law ever written are confused, and are missing the whole point of Jesus' message. The message that God's love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity, manifesting within us, transcends the laws of man and religion by transforming us from within, spiritually. Through this spiritual transformation, the law becomes redundant, and unnecessary.

To ponder these questions is to miss the point of his story, and his message.

Greetings. Thanks for that answer. Now I am starting to understand the Christian perspective better.

 

[Kenny]

Greetings. Thanks. My questions are not about the differences but only, as Christians, what do you mean by sin (specifics)? Do Christians get their definition of sin, during Jesus' lifetime, from the five books of Moses or some other place?

For example, an easy one. Did Jesus keep the 10 commandments? If so, how did he and disciples define work on the Sabbath? What kinds of actions did they consider to be work on the Sabbath?

Another would be that if he was a king there is a command in the Torah that a king would write two Torah scrolls for himself. One of which would have to be with him. Do Christians say that Jesus did this? If not, why not?

I would say “all of the above”... because Jesus said, Matt5” 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. - so we not only have the Torah but also a deeper understanding

Yes, He kept the Sabbath but redefined and delineated between interpretations of said day of rest and what God meant about the day of rest. Some interpreted “work” into including any type of helps. But Jesus said, “
And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an *** or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things. Luk 14

 

[Kenny]

And I ask forgiveness for the “troll” comment.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would say “all of the above”... because Jesus said, Matt5” 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. - so we not only have the Torah but also a deeper understanding

Yes, He kept the Sabbath but redefined and delineated between interpretations of said day of rest and what God meant about the day of rest. Some interpreted “work” into including any type of helps. But Jesus said, “
And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an *** or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things. Luk 14

Thanks. Now I understand what you mean better.

 

[pearl]

Greetings. Thanks. My questions are not about the differences but only, as Christians, what do you mean by sin (specifics)? Do Christians get their definition of sin, during Jesus' lifetime, from the five books of Moses or some other place?

First, there were no Christians during Jesus' lifetime.
Second, when we as Christians consider sin it is with an examination of conscience which is guided by the Ten Commandments and the teaching of Jesus found in the 'Sermon on the Mount', the Torah of fulfilled in Jesus, the torah of the Messiah, the love of God and our neighbor. All we know from the Gospels is Jesus' faithfulness to religious obligations for Seder and others, including the Sabbath. When criticized for plucking the corn Jesus quickly reminded that David entered the Tabernacle and ate 'showbread' reserved for the Priests.
Jesus opposed undue burden placed on lowly people. I find it a bit ironic that the Catholic Church refers to the Pharisaic burden when there are more than 2000 codes in the code of cannon law.

Another would be that if he was a king there is a command in the Torah that a king would write two Torah scrolls for himself. One of which would have to be with him. Do Christians say that Jesus did this? If not, why not?

If you are considering the historical Jesus, I doubt he ever referred to himself as 'king', this would only be in 'resurrection hindsight'. But that's just me.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

First, there were no Christians during Jesus' lifetime.
Second, when we as Christians consider sin it is with an examination of conscience which is guided by the Ten Commandments and the teaching of Jesus found in the 'Sermon on the Mount', the Torah of fulfilled in Jesus, the torah of the Messiah, the love of God and our neighbor. All we know from the Gospels is Jesus' faithfulness to religious obligations for Seder and others, including the Sabbath. When criticized for plucking the corn Jesus quickly reminded that David entered the Tabernacle and ate 'showbread' reserved for the Priests.
Jesus opposed undue burden placed on lowly people. I find it a bit ironic that the Catholic Church refers to the Pharisaic burden when there are more than 2000 codes in the code of cannon law.

If you are considering the historical Jesus, I doubt he ever referred to himself as 'king', this would only be in 'resurrection hindsight'. But that's just me.

Interesting. Thanks for the comment.

 

[Kenny]

Jesus fulfilled the letter of the law, by embodying the Divine Spirit from which it is derived. This is why modern Christians are not Jews.

Of course, much like Jewish interpretations which may vary, so would I on this point in as much as the Jewish Pharisee (Saul/Paul) said we were engrafted into the Jewish Olive Tree and that we shouldn’t be high minded because we can be engrafted back out.

 

[Estro Felino]

Thanks. That helps a lot. I have question about one of the statements:

"a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law"

What is meant by this statement? What is considered the "eternal law" according to this view?

For example, let's say that a child doen't tell his/her parents that they are going to be somewhere and the parents go looking for the kid because they don't know where the child is. When they find the child, no matter the child's reasoning, is it safe to say that the child has commited a sin according to the above definition?

The eternal Law is the order created by God where all creatures live harmoniously.

As for the question about young Jesus in the Temple... I guess the Jews call that Bar Mitzvah

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thanks for your answer. So my next question is, when you say he kept the law perfectly do you mean the following:

1. He wore tefillin every day, except for the Sabbath and the festivals.
   • Did he follow the school of thought to wear tefillin on the intermediate days of Passover or the school of thought to not wear them during the intermediate days?
2. He had a clear a standard definition he held by for what considered work on the Sabbath and he did not do work on the Sabbath.
   • What was his source for what was work on the Sabbath and what was not?
3. He wore wore his tzitzit with the blue thread.
   • What did he consider to be a (or the) correct source for producing the blue color?
4. After every meal he praised the Creator, as Moses commanded.
   • Did he do this for all foods or only specific meals?

Thanks.

What is known is what is taught in the scriptures, as you well know! Jesus always referred to the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings when justifying his actions.

The tefillin are mentioned in Matthew 23:5, the context of which says: 'Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries [tefillin], and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.'

Interesting that Jesus does not teach others to break the law of Moses, but to observe the law. But he sees through to the heart, and he knows that a heart in sin is neither contrite nor humble.

The real issue of contention here is the keeping of the Sabbath. Jesus made it known that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. The rest of the Sabbath is for the good of man, but does God need to rest on man's Sabbath? Is not the giving, or saving, of life allowed on the Sabbath?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The real issue of contention here is the keeping of the Sabbath. Jesus made it known that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. The rest of the Sabbath is for the good of man, but does God need to rest on man's Sabbath? Is not the giving, or saving, of life allowed on the Sabbath?

Greetings. I guess what I am asking is a bit more technical. Take the NT Pharisees and Sadducees out of the picture.

1. When Jesus and his disciples were alone together, no one contending with them, how did they keep the Sabbath?
   • What was their schedule for the Sabbath? From what time until what time they consider it to be the Sabbath?
   • Were they lunar Sabbath keepers?
   • Did they do fishing on the Sabbath?
   • Did they have their own synagogue?
   • Did they use a particular Torah scroll type?
   • Did they use the 1 year reading cycle of the Torah or the 3 year cycle?
   • Did they bake bread on the Sabbath? Did they cook on the Sabbath?
   • What things did they not do on Sabbath or did they consider everyone to choose what they wanted to do or not do on the Sabbath?
   • or did they simple do what other Jews did, with a different set of opinions on why they did what they did?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Fool]

Questions to Christians.

I have seen a claim that Jesus was sinless or that he fulfilled the Torah. My questions are as follows.

1. Are you saying that Jesus actually did the entire 613 mitzvoth of the Torah himself?
2. If not, are you saying that while he was living, he did all the ~20 mitzvoth, from the Torah, that a regular Jewish man performs daily?
   • Did Jesus wear tefillin? If so, what type?
   • Did he include the 10 commandments in his tefillin?
   • Did he wear tzitzit? If so, with techelet or without it?
   • What animal did he use for the techelet?
   • Did he do birkat hamazon? If so, what words did he say?
   • Did he bring Qorban for every Hag? (Pesah, Shavuoth, Sukkoth)
   • Did he give a half sheqel? How many times?
3. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, performed the mitzvoth of a Nazir?
4. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, perform the mitzvoth required of a Jewish king?
   1. Did he write the two Torah scrolls that Jewish kings were required to write, per the Torah? If so, what happened to them? Did his disciples take them and use them?
5. Lastly, if none of the above are valid, or not clear, what is your definition of a sin?
   • I.e. what specific sins are you saying he did not commit?
   • What was his day to day schedule? From morning until night what non-sins was he doing?

Thanks in advance.

i don't identify as exclusively christian because love is not exclusive to christianity. but i was raised christian

if you follow this one idea, you cover all sins. love is sinless and god is love

Proverbs 10:12

this is the Law. this is the Way

 

[firedragon]

Questions to Christians.

I have seen a claim that Jesus was sinless or that he fulfilled the Torah. My questions are as follows.

1. Are you saying that Jesus actually did the entire 613 mitzvoth of the Torah himself?
2. If not, are you saying that while he was living, he did all the ~20 mitzvoth, from the Torah, that a regular Jewish man performs daily?
   • Did Jesus wear tefillin? If so, what type?
   • Did he include the 10 commandments in his tefillin?
   • Did he wear tzitzit? If so, with techelet or without it?
   • What animal did he use for the techelet?
   • Did he do birkat hamazon? If so, what words did he say?
   • Did he bring Qorban for every Hag? (Pesah, Shavuoth, Sukkoth)
   • Did he give a half sheqel? How many times?
3. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, performed the mitzvoth of a Nazir?
4. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, perform the mitzvoth required of a Jewish king?
   1. Did he write the two Torah scrolls that Jewish kings were required to write, per the Torah? If so, what happened to them? Did his disciples take them and use them?
5. Lastly, if none of the above are valid, or not clear, what is your definition of a sin?
   • I.e. what specific sins are you saying he did not commit?
   • What was his day to day schedule? From morning until night what non-sins was he doing?

Thanks in advance.

Let me give you an answer form the orthodox Christian theological point of view. This is not scriptural, or historical, its a theological answer.

The Sinless Jesus does not mean he has to follow the Mitzvoh. Jesus was born of Mary who was born of an immaculate conception, thus he has sinless pedigree unlike everyone else who was ever born. Jesus was the sinless sacrifice and was born to be.

He was not sinless because he does not miss a commandment of the Tanakh. He was Sinless by himself. His sinlessness preceded him, and it was innate for him to be the perfect, sinless sacrifice.

Its not his personal acts of following the Mitzvoh which makes him Sinless. It is himself.

Your question is valid, and this answer won't resonate with you, but this is the Christian theology. Thus when you question "what is sinlessness of Jesus", you should understand what the Christian theology is about the Sinless nature of Jesus.

Cheers.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Let me give you an answer form the orthodox Christian theological point of view. This is not scriptural, or historical, its a theological answer.

The Sinless Jesus does not mean he has to follow the Mitzvoh. Jesus was born of Mary who was born of an immaculate conception, thus he has sinless pedigree unlike everyone else who was ever born. Jesus was the sinless sacrifice and was born to be.

He was not sinless because he does not miss a commandment of the Tanakh. He was Sinless by himself. His sinlessness preceded him, and it was innate for him to be the perfect, sinless sacrifice.

Its not his personal acts of following the Mitzvoh which makes him Sinless. It is himself.

Your question is valid, and this answer won't resonate with you, but this is the Christian theology. Thus when you question "what is sinlessness of Jesus", you should understand what the Christian theology is about the Sinless nature of Jesus.

Cheers.

Greetings. I think I understand what you are saying about the Christian concept. Thanks for the response.

 

[firedragon]

Greetings. I think I understand what you are saying about the Christian concept. Thanks for the response.

Honoured Ehav4ever.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I have seen a claim that Jesus was sinless or that he fulfilled the Torah. My questions are as follows.

Some people claim that. I make no claims, and the NT writers claim he is nearly sinless and is perfected through obedience, then is perfected in death. Most of your other questions cannot be answered as we don't have details. At this point its all about a hypothetical: what if there were a man so nearly perfect and what if there were a man like Jesus who etc etc.

1. No, I do not make any claims.
2. All that is provided (to me) is an age and a few details. The rest is left to the imagination. There is no way for you to check.
3. I have heard of this, but I do not know whether he did.
4. This is not specifically stated. He also doesn't claim to be the king in either our age or our version of reality or our world. The meaning is contestable, but he speaks to the Roman governor saying he's not the king, not at that moment or in some way. Therefore its possible he becomes king only after he dies. He also has strange ideas about who people are and aren't. He says people must deny themselves, says John the Baptist is Elijah. Its in many ways unclear that he actually considers himself to be of the lineage of David both because of his genealogies and because of various things he says. Maybe.
5. The way I perceive the writers (and I don't make claims to you about what is) is that this impermanent world is to be transformed into something else that is permanent. In that case sin is whatever difference there is between the two worlds, and the idea seems to involve time and is not instantaneous transformation. Jesus is ahead of his time, the first. The new world is his creation or is created through him, the two things being considered the same due to a burning away of anything impermanent in him.

 

[Kenny]

Okay. Thanks. So, are you saying that he kept laws as a Jew who was not a king or as a Jew who was a king? I.e. if he was not considered during his time to be a king he would not be required to make two copies of a Torah. If he was considered a king during his time he would have had to have written two Torahs.

Is there any Christian material of "how" he kept the laws that he kept?

I would agree with the position it wasn't required for him to make two copies of a Torah for two reasons:

1. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world..." therefore, technically, it wasn't a requirement for his life on the earth.
2. Pre-incarnate Jesus, he was The Word. IMO, he was the one who actually authored it in the first place.

I don't know if others believers in Christ would agree with my point #2.