Question to Christians about Jesus' "Sinlessness"

[BilliardsBall]

Thank you for your comment. The logic of the question is to understand what Christians mean when they say Jesus fulfilled. W/o the Christian definition of the statement it would open to lots of interpretation. Since I don't want to create an intereptation I want to under the one correct standard that Christians say it means.

So, if I understand what you are saying is that in Christianity, according to Jesus, if one loves God and their neighbor then there are mitzvoth that they no longer need to consider/do or that it was never the original intent for them to be done, after a certain point. Is this a correct interpretation?

1) The law for the Nazir had to do with voluntary vows, or in the case of Samson, a childhood/parental vow.

2) What is your point? Remember the rabbis who blessed horsemeat in the Shoah, saying "Live by Torah but don't die by Torah"?

3) You can find instances where Yeshua argued with our other Jewish leaders because He disobeyed oral law, but never a case where He did something forbidden by Torah. The sole reason yeshua was put to death, after false witnesses charges didn't agree (two or three in agreement were not found), during illegal false trials, was that He swore under oath to be Messiah and God.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Torah says to write these words in your heart - it's a wonder people didn't get chest tattoos.
And to hold to the truth of God you carry a box of scripture around, strapped to your body.
It's no wonder Jesus took offense with his Jewish compatriots.

Nothing quite like reading bilious expressions of antisemitic contempts to start the day.

 

[Harel13]

Nothing quite like reading bilious expressions of antisemitic contempts to start the day.

I didn't think it was antisemitic. I thought it was a bit silly. For example, suppose there's a commandment to literally write on your heart the words of God. What would tattooing it on your chest help? Those are different body parts.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

1) The law for the Nazir had to do with voluntary vows, or in the case of Samson, a childhood/parental vow.

2) What is your point? Remember the rabbis who blessed horsemeat in the Shoah, saying "Live by Torah but don't die by Torah"?

3) You can find instances where Yeshua argued with our other Jewish leaders because He disobeyed oral law, but never a case where He did something forbidden by Torah. The sole reason yeshua was put to death, after false witnesses charges didn't agree (two or three in agreement were not found), during illegal false trials, was that He swore under oath to be Messiah and God.

Concerning what is my point. My question is about how do Christians interpret the concept of Jesus being sinless and him fulfilling the Torah - i.e. do you consider a sin to be him not keeping/trangressing the Torah or just simply a type of interpersonal morality that kept that is not from the Torah? There are several ways I can think of what someone could mean by those statements. There are further many ways I have heard Christians themselves interpret it through this thread. Is sin simply the inability to keep the mitzvoth of the Torah? If so, which ones?

So, my point is how do Christians understand it from your own point of view?

Now going to the points you brougth up, if I understand you correctly according to Christianity Jesus did not do anything that was agaisnt the written text of the Torah. So, my question would be how exactly did he perform certain mitzvoth.

For example, take away the Pharisees and Saducees and put Jesus on a typical day w/o any of the debates that the NT records. Did Jesus wear tzitzith with techeleth or did not wear them? If he did, was techeleth according to him any color from any source or was it from a very specific color and a very specific source? When Jesus kept the Sabbath, how did he and his disciples do the Sabbath? Did they start the Sabbath in the day or the night? (I have come across Sacred Namers and Hebrew Roots Christian groups who have varying thoughts on this)

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Questions to Christians.

I have seen a claim that Jesus was sinless or that he fulfilled the Torah. My questions are as follows.

1. Are you saying that Jesus actually did the entire 613 mitzvoth of the Torah himself?
2. If not, are you saying that while he was living, he did all the ~20 mitzvoth, from the Torah, that a regular Jewish man performs daily?
   • Did Jesus wear tefillin? If so, what type?
   • Did he include the 10 commandments in his tefillin?
   • Did he wear tzitzit? If so, with techelet or without it?
   • What animal did he use for the techelet?
   • Did he do birkat hamazon? If so, what words did he say?
   • Did he bring Qorban for every Hag? (Pesah, Shavuoth, Sukkoth)
   • Did he give a half sheqel? How many times?
3. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, performed the mitzvoth of a Nazir?
4. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, perform the mitzvoth required of a Jewish king?
   1. Did he write the two Torah scrolls that Jewish kings were required to write, per the Torah? If so, what happened to them? Did his disciples take them and use them?
5. Lastly, if none of the above are valid, or not clear, what is your definition of a sin?
   • I.e. what specific sins are you saying he did not commit?
   • What was his day to day schedule? From morning until night what non-sins was he doing?

Thanks in advance.

5. None of those things are valid. Jesus probably did observe many of the Jewish rules, as he was ardent as a believer in Judaism. He read scrolls at Sabbath, he went to Jewish holidays and festivals. But there are plenty of them that he didn't.
But observance to rules is not righteousness, nor is scoffing at rules sin.

What makes Jesus sinless is that he has no separation in his heart. Sin is defined as missing the mark (see Matthew 15:8-9 ), being more attentive to rules than to God and other people. It's also defined as separation.

Sin - Separation From God - The Daily Coin

 

[PruePhillip]

Nothing quite like reading bilious expressions of antisemitic contempts to start the day.

I am a Jew. Love my culture, love my people. Love my nation.
quote - bilious, antisemitic, contempt.

Uh.. no.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am a Jew. Love my culture, love my people. Love my nation.
quote - bilious, antisemitic, contempt.

Uh.. no.

Then I owe you an apology.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Concerning what is my point. My question is about how do Christians interpret the concept of Jesus being sinless and him fulfilling the Torah - i.e. do you consider a sin to be him not keeping/trangressing the Torah or just simply a type of interpersonal morality that kept that is not from the Torah? There are several ways I can think of what someone could mean by those statements. There are further many ways I have heard Christians themselves interpret it through this thread. Is sin simply the inability to keep the mitzvoth of the Torah? If so, which ones?

So, my point is how do Christians understand it from your own point of view?

Now going to the points you brougth up, if I understand you correctly according to Christianity Jesus did not do anything that was agaisnt the written text of the Torah. So, my question would be how exactly did he perform certain mitzvoth.

For example, take away the Pharisees and Saducees and put Jesus on a typical day w/o any of the debates that the NT records. Did Jesus wear tzitzith with techeleth or did not wear them? If he did, was techeleth according to him any color from any source or was it from a very specific color and a very specific source? When Jesus kept the Sabbath, how did he and his disciples do the Sabbath? Did they start the Sabbath in the day or the night? (I have come across Sacred Namers and Hebrew Roots Christian groups who have varying thoughts on this)

Sin is imperfection or missing the mark. Not doing something the best way.

Another kind of sin is breaching a Torah, not Talmud/oral law.

Shabbat in the NT starts in the evening.

Jesus wore tzitzit, as recorded, someone reached out to touch it and was healed because (IMO) "His tzitzit touched the ark of the Law, His body/Spirit".

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sin is imperfection or missing the mark. Not doing something the best way.

Another kind of sin is breaching a Torah, not Talmud/oral law.

Shabbat in the NT starts in the evening.

Jesus wore tzitzit, as recorded, someone reached out to touch it and was healed because (IMO) "His tzitzit touched the ark of the Law, His body/Spirit".

Greetings. Taking your responses and the other responses I now have a better understand of the Christian concept of sin. Thanks.