Question to Christians about Jesus' "Sinlessness"

[Ehav4Ever]

The Tanakh said that God permitted the building of the temple. Permitting something
and wanting something are not the same. God also permitted divorce, but we can be
sure He did not want divorce.

Thank you for your further explaination. Are you saying that Mishkan was "permitted" or that only the Temple in Jerusalem was permitted? If I understand this correctly you saying that according to Jesus God did not want the creation of a Mishkan or only that God did not want the building of a Temple?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The important question that seems to underlie all these sub-questions is, What does it mean to live a righteous life under the law of Moses? The simple answer is found in Deuteronomy 5:1, where it says, 'And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.'

Kind of but not exactly. The sub-questions are like this. Let's say we all had a time machine and went back during the time frame that New Testament describes as taking place in the life of Jesus, his family, and his disciples. If we were to find Jesus between the age 20 to 30 would we find him keeping the Torah as Jews in his surroundings kept it or would we find him doing something different? For example, the community he lived in reads the entire Torah in 1 year. There were some communities that did so in 3 years. Would Jesus have done either or these or would he have done something different? People in his community put on Tefillin would we find Jesus doing the same or not doing it because his claim was that there was no such mitzvah?

Further, we go to see him between the ages of 30 to 33 along with his disciples. We would see Jesus keeping the Sabbath the way that other Jews in the various areas of Israel did it or would we find him doing something different? For example, the Jews of the various areas are baking their bread before the Sabbath. Would Jesus have baked bread on the Sabbath because to him that is not work? If the Jews of the area are not catching their food on the Sabbath would Jesus and his disciples been fishing on the Sabbath because according to him this is not work? The reason for the question is the written Torah doesn't go through and detail exactly all the various aspects of what work on Sabbath is. (As an example, there are some Karaites Jews today - who are simialr to the Sadducees - who claim that it is forbidden to use electricity on the Sabbath even it was turned on before the Sabbath.) Also, the Jews of Jesus' area use blue from a particular sea creature for techeleth would Jesus had done the same or would he have used some other animal or method?

That is what I mean.

 

[rrobs]

Questions to Christians.

I have seen a claim that Jesus was sinless or that he fulfilled the Torah. My questions are as follows.

1. Are you saying that Jesus actually did the entire 613 mitzvoth of the Torah himself?
2. If not, are you saying that while he was living, he did all the ~20 mitzvoth, from the Torah, that a regular Jewish man performs daily?
   • Did Jesus wear tefillin? If so, what type?
   • Did he include the 10 commandments in his tefillin?
   • Did he wear tzitzit? If so, with techelet or without it?
   • What animal did he use for the techelet?
   • Did he do birkat hamazon? If so, what words did he say?
   • Did he bring Qorban for every Hag? (Pesah, Shavuoth, Sukkoth)
   • Did he give a half sheqel? How many times?
3. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, performed the mitzvoth of a Nazir?
4. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, perform the mitzvoth required of a Jewish king?
   1. Did he write the two Torah scrolls that Jewish kings were required to write, per the Torah? If so, what happened to them? Did his disciples take them and use them?
5. Lastly, if none of the above are valid, or not clear, what is your definition of a sin?
   • I.e. what specific sins are you saying he did not commit?
   • What was his day to day schedule? From morning until night what non-sins was he doing?

Thanks in advance.

Rather than giving my opinion, I'll let the scriptures answer your question. They are written at a 6th grade reading level, so just read them for what they say.

John 15:9,

As the Father hath loved me, so have I [Jesus] loved you: continue ye in my love.​

Rom 13:10,

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

​

Jesus loved which fulfills the law.

Also, 1 Corinthians 5:7 says Jesus was our Passover. The Passover lamb had to be without blemish (Ex 12:5).

As far as the Tefillin is concerned, yes he did wear one...not on his forehead, but in his heart. That's really what God wanted all along.

Matt 15:8,

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. (quoted from Is 29:13)
​

Take care

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Rather than giving my opinion, I'll let the scriptures to answer your question. They are written at a 6th grade reading level, so just read them for what they say.

John 15:9,

As the Father hath loved me, so have I [Jesus] loved you: continue ye in my love.​

Rom 13:10,

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

​

Jesus loved which fulfills the law.

Also, 1 Corinthians 5:7 says Jesus was our Passover. The Passover lamb had to be without blemish (Ex 12:5).

As far as the Tefillin is concerned, yes he did wear one...not on his forehead, but in his heart. That's really what God wanted all along.

Matt 15:8,

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. (quoted from Is 29:13)
​

Take care

The KJV is not a 6th grade reading level. Nobody uses that archaic English anymore.

 

[Kenny]

So, there were commands in the Torah (like the Temple) that Jesus was saying were to be done away with. Were there any others he felt were to be removed? Also, if Jesus saw the Sabbath as a part of the Commandments what he saying was the correct way to do the Sabbath? For example, what were the definitions he used for what was and wasn't work? Thanks.

John Gill

"By "the law" is meant the moral law, as appears from the whole discourse following: this he came not to "destroy", or loose men's obligations to, as a rule of walk and conversation, but "to fulfil" it; which he did doctrinally, by setting it forth fully, and giving the true sense and meaning of it; and practically, by yielding perfect obedience to all its commands, whereby he became "the end", the fulfilling end of it. By "the prophets" are meant the writings of the prophets, in which they illustrated and explained the law of Moses; urged the duties of it; encouraged men thereunto by promises; and directed the people to the Messiah, and to an expectation of the blessings of grace by him: all which explanations, promises, and prophecies, were so far from being made void by Christ, that they receive their full accomplishment in him."

Jesus didn't define per item what was work and what wasn't..

This is what he did say:

“He answered, ‘Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.’”

21 Jesus said to them, ‘I did one miracle, and you are all amazed. 22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.’”

“ 11 He said to them, ‘If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.’”

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:




How do you interpret the Sabbath vs these statements?

 

[Scott C.]

Greeings. So, in this vien do you consider the will of God to be some literal - do this and don't this? For example, in this concept did he simple spiritually/metaphorical do what he his father's will was? Or did actually have a list of things that one can say he actually did which constituted the will of his father? Like, heal this person but don't heal this person - do this particular miracle here and don't do a miracle for this - don't do this kind of work on the Sabbath but this kind of work do that on the Sabbath? Thanks for your comment.

I would say that Jesus was 100% pure. He had no disposition to do evil. His heart, mind, and hands only ever wanted to do good, to submit to the will of the Father, whatever that may be. He loved God and humandkind totally and completely. I also imagine he followed the direction of the Father daily as he was inspired on who to visit next, who to heal next, and what to say next. Most notably, when the hour of his greatest suffering was near he prayed to his Father with "thy will be done". I may not be describing it well at all, but this is what comes to mind.

 

[rrobs]

The KJV is not a 6th grade reading level. Nobody uses that archaic English anymore.

Did you do any research? If not, you might start here:

Is the King James Bible harder to read
​

I quoted 3 verses; John 15:9, Romans 13:10, and Matthew 15:8. Which ones don't you understand?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Kind of but not exactly. The sub-questions are like this. Let's say we all had a time machine and went back during the time frame that New Testament describes as taking place in the life of Jesus, his family, and his disciples. If we were to find Jesus between the age 20 to 30 would we find him keeping the Torah as Jews in his surroundings kept it or would we find him doing something different? For example, the community he lived in reads the entire Torah in 1 year. There were some communities that did so in 3 years. Would Jesus have done either or these or would he have done something different? People in his community put on Tefillin would we find Jesus doing the same or not doing it because his claim was that there was no such mitzvah?

Further, we go to see him between the ages of 30 to 33 along with his disciples. We would see Jesus keeping the Sabbath the way that other Jews in the various areas of Israel did it or would we find him doing something different? For example, the Jews of the various areas are baking their bread before the Sabbath. Would Jesus have baked bread on the Sabbath because to him that is not work? If the Jews of the area are not catching their food on the Sabbath would Jesus and his disciples been fishing on the Sabbath because according to him this is not work? The reason for the question is the written Torah doesn't go through and detail exactly all the various aspects of what work on Sabbath is. (As an example, there are some Karaites Jews today - who are simialr to the Sadducees - who claim that it is forbidden to use electricity on the Sabbath even it was turned on before the Sabbath.) Also, the Jews of Jesus' area use blue from a particular sea creature for techeleth would Jesus had done the same or would he have used some other animal or method?

That is what I mean.

You've drawn an interesting distinction between law and grace. We know very little about Jesus' life between the ages of twenty and thirty, when he lived under the law. We know a lot more about the final three years of his life.

Galatians 4:4. 'But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.'

My understanding is that Jesus lived in accordance with the accepted norms of Jewish custom and practice in Galilee two thousand years ago. Nazareth had a synagogue that Jesus attended, and from the account of his visit to Jerusalem, aged 12 [Luke 2:42], we can assume that all three Pilgrim festivals were attended by a large party of Jews from the Galilee region each year. Jesus' parents appear to have done their best to follow the law, though Mary's purification sacrifice [Luke 2:24] indicates a family on low income. Joseph was known in the Nazareth synagogue [Luke 4:22; John 6:42] but we don't know exactly when he died because he doesn't appear in the accounts of the crucifixion.

Interest in the person of Jesus grew when he reached thirty, partly because seekers after the Messiah were directed to him [Luke 7:19], but principally through the reputation he gained from preaching and healing [Luke 4:16; Luke 4:37].

It was with the religious authorities, not the common folk, that Jesus had most conflict. Maybe they didn't like the fact that a poor itinerant preacher should be attracting so much attention! In their pride, they wanted to put an end to his ministry. They questioned him on the law in an attempt to find flaws in his observance, but were not able to find any. In fact, his responses raised the bar to heights that the scribes and Pharisees themselves could not attain [Matthew 5]. Jesus says to them, 'Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.' [Matthew 5:19] How could Jesus make such a statement if he were not teaching and doing them himself?

As regards the Sabbath, I have one little passage to add. In John 5:16,17 it says, 'And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought the more to kill him, because he had done these things [healing] on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.'

John's Gospel shows Jesus as the Son of God. These words reflect a perspective that explains why Jesus did work [to provide life] on man's sabbath. It was because man's sabbath was not God's sabbath. God's sabbath was still future.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Did you do any research? If not, you might start here:

Is the King James Bible harder to read
​

I quoted 3 verses; John 15:9, Romans 13:10, and Matthew 15:8. Which ones don't you understand?

Why would I start with a propaganda site?

 

[rrobs]

Why would I start with a propaganda site?

Interesting research method you have there. Looks like you wrapped up the whole subject in less than 2 seconds.

 

[Neuropteron]

Greetings. So, if I understand you correctly according to Christianity Jesus' view was that (טטפות) Totophoth was metaphorical and did not have a specific action connected to it. Also, according to Jesus the use of teckelth in tzitzith is not from the Torah. This is very interesting. Thank you for your comment.

Hi,

I misspoke about tzitzith not a part of the Torah. I do not claim that Jesus made that statement, I did.
The Torah does have specific actions associated with it, just not one where we have to put a box on our head.

cheers,

 

[PruePhillip]

Thank you for your further explaination. Are you saying that Mishkan was "permitted" or that only the Temple in Jerusalem was permitted? If I understand this correctly you saying that according to Jesus God did not want the creation of a Mishkan or only that God did not want the building of a Temple?

The Mishkan was ordained by God. It was a symbol of God's presence and it went with God's
people wherever they were to go.
God PERMITTED the Temple.
God PERMITTED a king
God PERMITTED divorce.

I know you don't accept any of this, but at least you understand the Christian POV.

 

[Miken]

There appears to be a reference to Jesus wearing tzitzit in the Gospel of Mark.

Mark 6
56 And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or countryside, they laid the sick in the marketplaces and implored him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well.

The word translated as ‘fringe’ is κρασπέδου. According to Strong’s Concordance this means:

“the fringe of a garment;
in the NT a little appendage hanging down from the edge of the mantle or cloak, made of twisted wool;
a tassel, tuft: the Jews had such appendages attached to their mantles to remind them of the law”

In other words, tzitzit.

 

[PruePhillip]

There appears to be a reference to Jesus wearing tzitzit in the Gospel of Mark.

Mark 6
56 And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or countryside, they laid the sick in the marketplaces and implored him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well.

The word translated as ‘fringe’ is κρασπέδου. According to Strong’s Concordance this means:

“the fringe of a garment;
in the NT a little appendage hanging down from the edge of the mantle or cloak, made of twisted wool;
a tassel, tuft: the Jews had such appendages attached to their mantles to remind them of the law”

In other words, tzitzit.

Interesting point, but a fringe can be one thing, a tzitzit something different. And in Jesus' case
that would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. There is almost no symbolism in Jesus' ministry - in
fact symbolism was considered offensive. So for instance, Jesus didn't wear a holy garment, He
lived a holy life. Jesus never sought to create the sense of spirit in worship but promised to be
that spirit himself, in person. And so on. Bread and wine, and baptism, are the only symbols I can
think of in pure Christian service. Things like holy days were traditions developed later, and were
criticized even in the epistles.

 

[Miken]

Interesting point, but a fringe can be one thing, a tzitzit something different. And in Jesus' case
that would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. There is almost no symbolism in Jesus' ministry - in
fact symbolism was considered offensive. So for instance, Jesus didn't wear a holy garment, He
lived a holy life. Jesus never sought to create the sense of spirit in worship but promised to be
that spirit himself, in person.

In the Gospels we see Jesus following Jewish practices. Why would he not wear tzitzit? BTW tzitzit is plural.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The Mishkan was ordained by God. It was a symbol of God's presence and it went with God's
people wherever they were to go.
God PERMITTED the Temple.
God PERMITTED a king
God PERMITTED divorce.

I know you don't accept any of this, but at least you understand the Christian POV.

Greetings. Thanks. Now I understand the Christian POV.

 

[PruePhillip]

In the Gospels we see Jesus following Jewish practices. Why would he not wear tzitzit? BTW tzitzit is plural.

But for what reason would a person wear a tzitzit?

 

[Miken]

But for what reason would a person wear a tzitzit?

Because that is what observant Jewish men do. In Judaism this is one of the commandments given by God to the Jewish people. Why in the business world do men wear ties? Rather silly don't you think? No, it is an important element in identifying the person as part of a certain group who can be taken seriously to act in certain ways. In Judaism it is like that but not merely a custom. God said to do it. In New York City where I hail from, one will often see observant Jewish men wearing tzitzit. Surely it would be the same in Palestine in the 1st century of the Common Era.

 

[Redemptionsong]

John's Gospel tells us that Jesus Christ came from God 'unto his own'. He did not come as an outsider, but was intimately connected with the story of his own people. For this to have been possible, Jesus must have fulfilled all the most obvious credentials. He was born into the tribe of Judah [born in Bethlehem]; he could trace his family lineage back through the generations; his family followed the Mosaic law; and he observed the law without deviation or sin, though he was 'in all points tempted like as we are'. [Hebrews 4:15]

John 1:11-12.'He came unto his own, but his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:'

Jesus was never criticised for not knowing the law, but he was frequently questioned on his interpretation of the law. But as Jesus explained, righteousness under the law is different from the righteousness of God. Righteousness under the law is man's own righteousness, whereas the righteousness of faith is God's righteousness. [Genesis 15:6; Psalm 106:30,31]

Galatians 2:21. 'I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain'.

In Romans 9:31, Paul says, 'but Israel which followed after the law of righteousness hath not attained the law of righteousness'.

Paul helps to explain the difference from his own experiences. He says [Philippians 3:5,6], 'Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews: as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.' Yet he goes on to say, 'But what things were gain for me, those I counted loss for Christ.'

WOW!

'Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:'

WOW!

 

[PruePhillip]

Because that is what observant Jewish men do. In Judaism this is one of the commandments given by God to the Jewish people. Why in the business world do men wear ties? Rather silly don't you think? No, it is an important element in identifying the person as part of a certain group who can be taken seriously to act in certain ways. In Judaism it is like that but not merely a custom. God said to do it. In New York City where I hail from, one will often see observant Jewish men wearing tzitzit. Surely it would be the same in Palestine in the 1st century of the Common Era.

The Torah says to write these words in your heart - it's a wonder people didn't get chest tattoos.
And to hold to the truth of God you carry a box of scripture around, strapped to your body.
It's no wonder Jesus took offense with his Jewish compatriots.