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Featured Question to Christians about Jesus' "Sinlessness"

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Ehav4Ever, Oct 25, 2020.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Questions to Christians.

    I have seen a claim that Jesus was sinless or that he fulfilled the Torah. My questions are as follows.
    1. Are you saying that Jesus actually did the entire 613 mitzvoth of the Torah himself?
    2. If not, are you saying that while he was living, he did all the ~20 mitzvoth, from the Torah, that a regular Jewish man performs daily?
      • Did Jesus wear tefillin? If so, what type?
      • Did he include the 10 commandments in his tefillin?
      • Did he wear tzitzit? If so, with techelet or without it?
      • What animal did he use for the techelet?
      • Did he do birkat hamazon? If so, what words did he say?
      • Did he bring Qorban for every Hag? (Pesah, Shavuoth, Sukkoth)
      • Did he give a half sheqel? How many times?
    3. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, performed the mitzvoth of a Nazir?
    4. Are you saying that Jesus, while he was living, perform the mitzvoth required of a Jewish king?
      1. Did he write the two Torah scrolls that Jewish kings were required to write, per the Torah? If so, what happened to them? Did his disciples take them and use them?
    5. Lastly, if none of the above are valid, or not clear, what is your definition of a sin?
      • I.e. what specific sins are you saying he did not commit?
      • What was his day to day schedule? From morning until night what non-sins was he doing?
    Thanks in advance.
     
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  2. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    You missed getting married, having children, teaching them Torah and getting divorced. :cool:
     
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  3. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Are you reading my mind?

    That is why I wonder about the exact way Christians define a sin. For example, if there is a mitzvah that one does not do - do Christians consider not doing it as a sin. If so, a person who doesn't be fruitful and multiply would be sinning. Further, if one wants to say that he fulfilled the Torah yet there are mitzvoth that everyone agrees he didn't do that would seem like a not a fulfillment.

    It is also interesting to think that if Jesus went 30 years without being married that would have been considered very strange at that time in history for a fully functional man to get past the ages of 13 to 19 and not get married.

    This one alone brings up a lot more questions, but I want to give time for answers.
     
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  4. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Why is all of this important to you?

    If the gospels are readily available... did you see these things mentioned? Was there any accusation of him NOT following 613 mitzvoth of the Torah? Is so, which one?

    What we do know is, John 8:46 Who of you convicts Me of wrongdoing or finds Me guilty of sin? and they didn't have anything to say

    Is this just a troll?

    Anything that God does not want you to do or say.

    John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    John 12; 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    EDIT:

    Or that which is done correctly but not from the heart like "honoring G-d with you lips but your hearts are far from Him"
     
    #4 KenS, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  5. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Could it be that this is applicable to some of your statements?
     
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  6. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Greetings. I am sorry. Are these kinds of questions off limit? I thought this was okay for the Religions Q&A. It is not a troll. Just questions based on statements made in other threads.

    That doesn't answer the question. From what I understand Christianity teaches that Jesus did not sin and that he fulfilled the law. My questions deal with which law did he fulfill and what standard do Christian use to define sine, prior to the writing of the New Testament?

    It is important to note that this may not be relevant to all Christians. I know that there are some groups of Christians who have different beleifs about sin and what is considered by the NT to be a sin.
     
  7. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Greetings. No this isn't what I am asking. From what I understand there are some Christians who beleive that Jesus kept the mitzvoth of the Torah perfectly for 33 years, and thus was w/o sin. I am trying to understand what that means to Christians who believe this.
     
  8. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Not off limits.... but I did answer the questions
     
  9. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Hi...this is a very interesting thread.
    It is absolutely certain Christians have a different vision of sin than Jews...so I would not focus on these differences. But on the fact we believe He is God, specifically the Second Person of the Trinity.

    Prophet Elias too used to perform miracles on a daily basis. The difference is that he was not God. Jesus was/is.
     
  10. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Okay. Thanks.
     
  11. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Greetings. Thanks. My questions are not about the differences but only, as Christians, what do you mean by sin (specifics)? Do Christians get their definition of sin, during Jesus' lifetime, from the five books of Moses or some other place?

    For example, an easy one. Did Jesus keep the 10 commandments? If so, how did he and disciples define work on the Sabbath? What kinds of actions did they consider to be work on the Sabbath?

    Another would be that if he was a king there is a command in the Torah that a king would write two Torah scrolls for himself. One of which would have to be with him. Do Christians say that Jesus did this? If not, why not?
     
    #11 Ehav4Ever, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    I myself have made in the past threads on these issues, maybe not the exact same questions, but similar. But mostly, I was reminded of a humorous story I heard once from one of my rabbis (nothing Christian-related).
     
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  13. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I need to give a thorough answer on the definition of sin. I would like to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1849-1851 》》)

     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Those laws that pertained to him, he kept.

    For an example: not to take revenge - certainly he did that

    In that he didn’t get married, obviously he fulfilled not getting married to an Ammonite etc. or spending the first year with a wife.

    So, some things we can deduce by what was written.

    Some things we can assume. In that the woman with the issue of blood says , “If I but touch the hem of his garment” it is possible she meant the tzitzit
     
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  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Thanks. That helps a lot. I have question about one of the statements:

    "a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law"

    What is meant by this statement? What is considered the "eternal law" according to this view?

    For example, let's say that a child doen't tell his/her parents that they are going to be somewhere and the parents go looking for the kid because they don't know where the child is. When they find the child, no matter the child's reasoning, is it safe to say that the child has commited a sin according to the above definition?
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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  17. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Okay. Thanks. So, are you saying that he kept laws as a Jew who was not a king or as a Jew who was a king? I.e. if he was not considered during his time to be a king he would not be required to make two copies of a Torah. If he was considered a king during his time he would have had to have written two Torahs.

    Is there any Christian material of "how" he kept the laws that he kept?
     
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  18. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Jesus fulfilled the letter of the law, by embodying the Divine Spirit from which it is derived. This is why modern Christians are not Jews.
     
  19. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Greetings. Thanks for your comment.

    Do you mean he literally did them or that he metaphorically did them? For example, did he literally honor his mother and father? Did he literally go to Jerusalem every year, starting at age 20, during Passover? Did he keep the Sabbath literally and if so how did he do it? For example, did he not work and what did he consider work not done on the Sabbath to be.

    Thanks.
     
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason to believe that Jesus did not keep the law of Moses perfectly. He lived under the law until he was about thirty, at which time he received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and thereafter lived by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    Gentiles have a habit of viewing Jesus through non-Jewish eyes, but the truth is he was accustomed to all the Jewish practices and festivals from his childhood upwards.

    Teaching the law of Moses to the world was not, however, Jesus Christ's mission on earth. To Christian understanding, Jesus came from God with the primary purpose of conquering sin and death, something that could not be achieved without first fulfilling the Law to his Father's satisfaction. Fulfilling the Law meant living a perfectly righteous life in God's eyes.

    The New Testament record that Jesus was raised from the dead, as the first-fruit of the harvest, demonstrates that God the Father was pleased with his Son's work.

    Did Jesus appear before men as the King of Kings bringing judgement? Clearly not. He came at his first advent as a suffering servant, and the appearance of Pilate's sign ['Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews'] was intended as mockery. In fact, God turns these words into words of judgement on unbelievers. Christ's promise to return as King and Judge was repeated to his disciples at the time of the ascension, following his resurrection. His future coming, doubted by many, will come as 'a thief in the night' [1 Thess. 5:2].

    Christians view Jesus as King now because he was crowned King in heaven at his ascension [see Daniel 7:13,14]. The Kingdom of God exists as a spiritual reality until the day that the Kingdom is brought to earth, and brought to completion for Israel, by the coming of the King.
     
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