Question for the religious: How do you determine which supernatural beliefs to believe?

[Abdushakur]

Based on what?

The Qur'an?

Yes.

The Qur'an isn't a history book, and it isn't a science book.

It is the Revelation from the Lord of all that exists, The Most High, The Most Great, over His creation in a manner that suits His Majesty, Allah.

And it is unreliable, not only because it is book full of false myths, but it is based on pretension that the Qur'an was written by Allah, and it supposedly "perfect".

To the disbelievers.

But leaving that aside, you are made unsubstantiated claims about jinns.

None of that you can prove. It is merely based on your belief that the jinns were "created before mankind".

To the disbelievers.

Can you prove that jinns exist before mankind? How do you know this? Can you prove the jinns even exist?

[Qur'an 51:56] And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).

[Qur'an 2:30] And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

One explanation is that this may refer to the jinns and the mischief they spread on the earth before mankind, because, Iblees (Shaytaan/Satan) was among the angels before he caused Adam and his wife to 'slip' and be expelled from Paradise.

[Qur'an 2:34] And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah).

[Qur'an 18:50] And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblis) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc).

I am not talking about you quoting the Qur'an and Hadeeth, because they are not evidences of anything.

Well, if you keep going, this is all you're going to get.

I am asking you to show real evidences of the jinn's existence that are independent of the Qur'an and the Hadeeth. What you believe in, and what you think you believe in from the Qur'an are merely superstitions.

I did, but you rejected it.

[Qur'an 2:121] ...And whoso disbelieves in it (the Quran), those are they who are the losers.

Superstitions are based on fear and ignorance, so they invent stories (stories of gods, angels, jinns, talking animals, etc) of what they believe to be true.

[Qur'an 2:103] And if they had believed, and guarded themselves from evil and kept their duty to Allah, far better would have been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!

And how do you know the jinns weren't invented by superstitious pagan Arabs before Muhammad's time?

[Qur'an 51:56] And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).

How are you any better than the pagans, since your prophet continue to propagate the same superstitions as their former pagan religion.

[Qur'an 2:143] Thus We have made you [true Muslims - real believers of Islamic Monotheism, true followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah (legal ways)], a Wasat (just) (and the best) nation, that you be witnesses over mankind and the Messenger (Muhammad) be a witness over you.

My questions are valid in your claims of jinns existence, and I don't think you can prove anything regarding to jinns.

Only the disbelievers refuse the knowledge.

You haven't seen ones. No ones have, except problem people suffering from delusions, who might think jinns and fairies exist.

No one can see jinns as they are from the unseen of which only Allah has absolute knowledge.

 

[Abdushakur]

Then why post here? If you can't support your beliefs why even put anything up for discussion?

Because that wasn't the point of the OP's thread.

I made clear why I believe what I believe.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because that wasn't the point of the OP's thread.

I made clear why I believe what I believe.

Yes, you chose the myth that you wanted to believe.

 

[Abdushakur]

You are a Muslim apologist. This is clear from your repeated posts of scripture. By the way, do you really think anyone reads your quoted verses?

Muslim apologists use science and the like to satiate the desires of the disbelievers, talking about scientific miracles in the Qur'an and the like.

I am an Athari, orthodox Muslim.

In other words, until you found one that met your then current needs.

No. That is not how I accepted Islam.

No, I do not think you were born into a Muslim family. I do read (some of) your posts. If I remember correctly you were born into a dual faith religious family. So your brainwashing into a belief in a god started early. That you searched for "your" god is not at all unusual. What is unusual, and a lot harder, is for a person raised religious to break free of the childhood indoctrination and discard all childish superstitions.

It wasn't a dual faith family either. They were non-practicing Catholics. Didn't go to church on Sundays or perform any of their rituals, I was baptized as a baby but never did communion, no one in my nuclear family practiced anything, still don't. My sister is a psychologist and I think an atheist, my brother doesn't have religious beliefs, neither does my mother or father, they have no religious affiliations anymore.. I spend most of my life as an agnostic and my parents never enforced religious beliefs on us, they let us decided what to believe in as we pleased. I had a stint in Sunday school for like a month but it was a waste of time. I was too old by that time and I was only there at my grandmothers request, the youth minister was a tool.

I didn't have any religion or religious beliefs before I was 26. Why are you groping in the dark with all these assumptions?

You have this mold you created in your mind about people who are religious? Worse yet, people you have zero knowledge about...on a forum. This is why I am skeptical of your alleged intellect and logic.

You don't know anything.

 

[Abdushakur]

Yes, you chose the myth that you wanted to believe.

Is this the point you are trying to get across?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is this the point you are trying to get across?

I am merely curious to see if you can justify your beliefs.

 

[Abdushakur]

I am merely curious to see if you can justify your beliefs.

Why?

 

[gnostic]

Just because people criticize Islam doesn't mean anything. What is the criticism going to do? I have no doubts about my religion, we live and we die for it.

The only people who prevent any criticism of their beliefs are those who have weak faith or lack certain knowledge. All praise is due to Allah alone, that as of now, this is not the case for me. And I have no qualms admitting I believe in Allah, the Qur'an, the whole of it and the only man I blindly follow is the Prophet Muhammad.

Criticism is not in itself a bad thing.

You can learn from your mistake, if you bother to understand the criticism.

For instance, you attack Christians for celebrating Christmas, because it is borrowing of pagan customs and pagan traditions.

And I do agree they have borrowed Christian traditions, but so have Muhammad and all Muslims.

I won't go into jinns again, because I have already talk about it my previous replies, but just to add that Islamic teachings on jinns, are also based on pagan belief.

To give you another example.

The original Judaic teachings, don't have much in the way of the afterlife, except a few vague passages where all men (and women), good or bad, go in their afterlife in the shade - to this Sheol.

Sheol is the Jewish version of the Netherworld. No one being judge, no one being punished or rewarded for what they did when they were alive. Sheol isn't heaven or hell.

That's all.

Christian and Islamic belief, of salvation and going to heaven or paradise, or being punished in hell, actually originated from the Hellenistic Egyptian and Greek mystery religions (3rd to 1st century BCE).

The judgement of the soul, come from both Greek and Egyptian myths.

In Greek religions, Hades or Persephone was a judge in the Underworld (depending if you follow mainstream Greek religion or you follow the Eleusinian Mysteries or Orphic Mysteries). Those that were exceptionally good go to Elysian Fields or the Blessed Isles (or White Island), and those who were guilty of the gravest sins, went to Tartarus. Those who were neither, stayed in Erebus.

In Egyptian myth, the soul were judged by the Scale and by Osiris, the lord of the netherworld. The spirits were either sent to the Field of Reeds (Egyptian version of heaven, paradise or Elysium) or either consume by Amit (a demon with crocodile head and hippo body) or sent to Tuat (Egyptian version of hell or Tartarus).

Since Judaea weren't isolated kingdom, it became apparent that Christian belief were influenced by pagan religions.

Likewise, Islam is borrowing of several religions, including Judaism and Christianity, as well as Zoroastianism and native pre-Islamic (pagan) Arabic religion.

Allah himself was one of the many pagan gods in the Arab pantheon, a creator god, who was originally also a moon god.

Speaking of moon god, isn't one of Islam's sacred symbol is the crescent moon.

Isn't the crescent moon a borrowing of pagan symbol?

You talk of Christian teaching and bible being corrupted by editors and pagan customs, and yet you have pagan symbol of the moon that are often depicted in stones on the domes of mosques.

 

[Abdushakur]

Criticism is not in itself a bad thing.

You can learn from your mistake, if you bother to understand the criticism.

What mistakes?

For instance, you attack Christians for celebrating Christmas, because it is borrowing of pagan customs and pagan traditions.

Attack? What are you talking about? How is was me mentioning the reality of Christmas an "attack"?

And I do agree they have borrowed Christian traditions, but so have Muhammad and all Muslims.

I won't go into jinns again, because I have already talk about it my previous replies, but just to add that Islamic teachings on jinns, are also based on pagan belief.

Where is your proof?

To give you another example.

The original Judaic teachings, don't have much in the way of the afterlife, except a few vague passages where all men (and women), good or bad, go in their afterlife in the shade - to this Sheol.

Sheol is the Jewish version of the Netherworld. No one being judge, no one being punished or rewarded for what they did when they were alive. Sheol isn't heaven or hell.

That's all.

The Jews believe in Gehinnom, in Arabic Jahannam, the Hellfire. What are you talking about? Then again, Allah says about the Jews regarding this matter:

[Qur'an 2:80] And they (Jews) say, "The Fire (i.e. Hell-fire on the Day of Resurrection) shall not touch us but for a few numbered days." Say (O Muhammad): "Have you taken a covenant from Allah, so that Allah will not break His Covenant? Or is it that you say of Allah what you know not?"

[Qur'an 3:24] This is because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a number of days." And that which they used to invent regarding their religion has deceived them.

Christian and Islamic belief, of salvation and going to heaven or paradise, or being punished in hell, actually originated from the Hellenistic Egyptian and Greek mystery religions (3rd to 1st century BCE).

The judgement of the soul, come from both Greek and Egyptian myths.

In Greek religions, Hades or Persephone was a judge in the Underworld (depending if you follow mainstream Greek religion or you follow the Eleusinian Mysteries or Orphic Mysteries). Those that were exceptionally good go to Elysian Fields or the Blessed Isles (or White Island), and those who were guilty of the gravest sins, went to Tartarus. Those who were neither, stayed in Erebus.

In Egyptian myth, the soul were judged by the Scale and by Osiris, the lord of the netherworld. The spirits were either sent to the Field of Reeds (Egyptian version of heaven, paradise or Elysium) or either consume by Amit (a demon with crocodile head and hippo body) or sent to Tuat (Egyptian version of hell or Tartarus).

Since Judaea weren't isolated kingdom, it became apparent that Christian belief were influenced by pagan religions.

Likewise, Islam is borrowing of several religions, including Judaism and Christianity, as well as Zoroastianism and native pre-Islamic (pagan) Arabic religion.

All of this from you with no cited sources. This is conjecture. Good attempt tho, at trying to make me question my religion. Unfortunately, you do not understand what you are saying.

Allah himself was one of the many pagan gods in the Arab pantheon, a creator god, who was originally also a moon god.

Not this Chick tract nonsense. This theory has been disproven. It holds no weight whatsoever. I have already looked into this matter in depth.

Speaking of moon god, isn't one of Islam's sacred symbol is the crescent moon.

No.

Isn't the crescent moon a borrowing of pagan symbol?

Possibly. Still doesn;t make it an Islamic symbol. It doesn;t originate with Islam, it came later after the Prophet and the Khilafah. It is called a Bid'ah in Islam, a religious innovation. And all innovations are misguidance and in the fire. You believe the crescent to be part of Islam, you are misguided from the truth, so you argue with falsehood.

A basic google search on the history of this symbol within the Muslim society is sufficient. It is not found in anything as a symbol in the religious text.

You talk of Christian teaching and bible being corrupted by editors and pagan customs, and yet you have pagan symbol of the moon that are often depicted in stones on the domes of mosques.

Again, this is wrong. This is willful ignorance.

 

[stvdv]

That's as refreshing as the car salesman who tells you: Go to other dealers, get their best prices, then come back and see me. He says this hoping you will be so impressed with his honesty and confidence that you stay and buy a car from him. He's usually right. It's a tactic that salespeople have been taught since there have been products to sell.
I guess you fell for it.

You said correct "I guess"

I know the truth "You are wrong here"

 

[Polymath257]

[Qur'an 6:25] And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."


The fact that you have to exclaim that you are a trust worthy person is supect in of itself. Especially as an argument in a forum online.


[Qur'an 7:176] And had We willed, We would surely have elevated him therewith but he clung to the earth and followed his own vain desire. So his description is the description of a dog: if you drive him away, he lolls his tongue out, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls his tongue out. Such is the description of the people who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). So relate the stories, perhaps they may reflect.

[Qur'an 6:148] Those who took partners (in worship) with Allah will say: "If Allah had willed, we would not have taken partners (in worship) with Him, nor would our fathers, and we would not have forbidden anything (against His Will)." Likewise belied those who were before them, (they argued falsely with Allah's Messengers), till they tasted of Our Wrath. Say: "Have you any knowledge (proof) that you can produce before us? Verily, you follow nothing but guess and you do nothing but lie."

So you quote your book again. Have you nothing to say to demonstrate your position other than a book written by men to control men? Can you not show evidence in the real world for what you claim?

 

[Polymath257]

And you have armored yourself against belief.

[Qur'an 17:90-94] And they say: "We shall not believe in you (O Muhammad), until you cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us; Or you have a garden of date-palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst abundantly; Or you cause the heaven to fall upon us in pieces, as you have pretended, or you bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face; Or you have a house of adornable materials (like silver and pure gold, etc.), or you ascend up into the sky, and even then we will put no faith in your ascension until you bring down for us a Book that we would read." Say (O Muhammad): "Glorified (and Exalted) be my Lord (Allah) above all that evil they (polytheists) associate with Him! Am I anything but a man, sent as a Messenger?" And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said: "Has Allah sent a man as (His) Messenger?"

No, I have armored myself against superstition and nonsense. And again, you quote your book. It has no impact on me because it is a book of myths and fairy tales. Look up from your reading and see the real world!

Why do you think the Islamic world was left behind for centuries? When al-Ghazali closed the gates of ijtihad, your world was condemned to ignorance and superstition. If you want to get into the modern world, you need to see your book as one of many and not close to the best.

 

[Polymath257]

The criticism comes in the form of Scriptural legislation. Adopting the practice of the pagans and the polytheists is impersmissible from Moses to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them).

From this comes the use of amulets. These under garments act as wearable amulets that serve to protect the wearer from evil and temptations. This is the practice of the occultists and soothsayers and the likes of them, and these people are disbelievers.

The moment a person adopts these sorts of practice, they have left the Mercy of their Creator and traded it for misguidance. Especially when you attribute it to one of the Prophets of Allah, Jesus.

All this is just according to your particular myths. Well, the myths you hold up are not substantiated by facts. Yet you take a book written by men over reality.

 

[Polymath257]

Anyway, I think the OP question has been answered.

Some choose to believe all the supernatural beliefs promoted by their 'holy book'. Some others pick and choose based on what they like.

 

[ecco]

ecco: Previously...

• All religions believe their gods are the only really true gods.
• All religions believe other religion's deities are not really true gods.

You all say you are right. You all say they are wrong.
There is no difference between you and the Baptists and the Jews and the LDS and the Hindus and the JW's and the Scientologists and the Heaven's Gate.​

As a matter of fact, there is a massive difference between us and them. And if you fail to comprehend that, then that is your problem, not mine.

• What massive difference?
• They believe their holy scripts
• You believe your holy scripts
• What massive difference?
• They believe your god is not a real god
• You believe their gods are not real gods

Can you show what you think these massive differences are? There aren't any. You even admitted you believe your book because you believe your book. That's not any different than the Christian who says: God said it, I believe it.

 

[Katzpur]

If you do not want to get into it with me, you don't have to after this. That is your choice.

That's right. I don't want to. You're not worth my time. I had hoped we could put past posts behind us, and start over again, but it doesn't look like this is going to be possible.

 

[Vinayaka]

Then why post here? If you can't support your beliefs why even put anything up for discussion?

Proselytizing, my man, proselytizing. Poorly disguised as debate.

 

[ecco]

Muslim apologists use science and the like to satiate the desires of the disbelievers, talking about scientific miracles in the Qur'an and the like.

I am an Athari, orthodox Muslim.

Apologetics is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse.​

By definition you are an Islamic apologist. Why try to deny it? You've come on here to defend your religion. You've posted counless verses from the quran is support of your comments. You're an Islamic apologist. Why does that term bother you?
Furthermore, based on your comments, I would classify you as a Fundamentalist Muslim.

It wasn't a dual faith family either. They were non-practicing Catholics... I had a stint in Sunday school for like a month but it was a waste of time. I was too old by that time and I was only there at my grandmothers request, the youth minister was a tool.

Actually, your background is very similar to mine. But my few weeks in Sunday School around age nine were not a waste of time. I came out of that realizing that god and noah and jonah were as real as any of my cartoon comic book characters.

I didn't have any religion or religious beliefs before I was 26. Why are you groping in the dark with all these assumptions?

You have this mold you created in your mind about people who are religious? Worse yet, people you have zero knowledge about...on a forum. This is why I am skeptical of your alleged intellect and logic.

You don't know anything.

I am surprised that you ended up being a religious fundamentalist. Usually people like that were strongly indoctrinated into religious beliefs from an early age. Most people who come to religion later in life are far more moderate in their beliefs.

But every rule has its exceptions and you seem to be one. When you went in, you went in all the way.

 

[ecco]

You said correct "I guess"

I know the truth "You are wrong here"

If my "guess" is wrong, why did you bother posting the story at all? You made it clear you were impressed with it. That's the whole point of the "salesman's tactic".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nearly all religions involve supernatural claims, and thus adhering to them involves belief in the supernatural.

In your opinion, which supernatural claim must I as a jew believe?