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Question for the religious: How do you determine which supernatural beliefs to believe?

Someone who believes in a god has no business criticizing someone else for being superstitious.

The criticism comes in the form of Scriptural legislation. Adopting the practice of the pagans and the polytheists is impersmissible from Moses to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them).

From this comes the use of amulets. These under garments act as wearable amulets that serve to protect the wearer from evil and temptations. This is the practice of the occultists and soothsayers and the likes of them, and these people are disbelievers.

The moment a person adopts these sorts of practice, they have left the Mercy of their Creator and traded it for misguidance. Especially when you attribute it to one of the Prophets of Allah, Jesus.
 
That's a good way to approach reality, don't question anything your religion preaches. This is an excellent example of brainwashing. It's like the Christian who believes...

GOD_SAID_IT-300x228.jpg
I am not a Christian, but the principle is the same. As my headline under my name reads: Qaal Allah, Qaal Rasool Allah (Allah Said, Allah's Messenger said). I have made no qualms about this nor do I deny it. I clearly stated this and I also said I am not an apologist. I am a Muslim.

As for why? It comes from my questions being answered to where I am satisfied. So in order to come to this conclusion, I had to go through other doors until I found the one that led me beyond the dead ends the others offered.

Also, perhaps you think I was born into a Muslim family, so you think this is something I was raised to believe. If this is the case, then this is incorrect. I am the only Muslim in my family.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That, you will only come to know when your appointed time overcomes you.

For now, go about with your beliefs, and I will go about with mine.
So you are back to unapologetically claiming that your God is immoral. A wise person would try to find out why his god was immoral.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If supernatural includes belief in the unseen, such as angels, jinn, Paradise and Hell then yes we believe in this. We also believe that Mary was a virgin and that Allah said "Be!" and he was created by His Command. We also believe that sihr (sorcery/magic) and the 'Ayn (The Evil/Envious Eye) is a reality, as well as possession of humans by jinn. We believe that Allah's Messenger split the moon, as attested by his people, though, those who were against him claimed it to be magic. This is one of several examples of the miracles of Allah's Messenger, and we believe in all of them since mant of them are witnessed by his companions and enemies alike, and only those who believed in these signs that were by Allah's Will were guided.
Christians blindly follow their Book, which is known, with certainty, to have been altered by human hands. The Book is "perfect through faith", without any corroborating doctrine or text. In Islam, the Qur'an is corraborated by the Hadeeth (those who reject the authentic Hadeeth reject the Qur'an as well) as well as statements of the companions themselves and even the enemies of Islam during the time of the Revelation. Though, for the Western world, most of this is obscured by a discrepency in language, meaning, much of the Arabic has yet to be translated, although a sufficient amount can be found in English capturing the meaning.

Abdushakur, you have only presented your belief, but presented no evidences to these so-called "miracles" of your "Messenger".

The Qur'an also alluded to King Solomon being able to understand the languages of the ants (27:18-19) and birds (27:16, 20), and speak to it.

It also say that Solomon can control and command the winds, as well as command the jinns and birds to fight in his army (27:17).

Do you also believe in these passages?

Muhammad is spinning fables and fairytale about talking animals, having no basis in reality.

The Old Testament Bible also include talking serpent and talking donkey, but they are also just fables/myths. And just because the Qur'an also include talking birds and ants, it doesn't justify such "miracles" are true.

Fables, at least the written narratives, have existed for millennia, and the earliest known ones exist in religious texts written in Egyptian hieroglyphs and Sumerian cuneiform from the 3rd millennia BCE.

You said you believe in jinns and jinn in possessing people. What does say about jinns?

Jinn supposed to be a being made out of smokeless fire. You haven't seen one, and yet you believe in them. That's called "faith", not evidences, and it is a blind faith at that.

But jinns are older than the Muhammad's Qur'an, in which the pagan Arabs believed in. So why do pagan mythological beings exist in the Qur'an, that supposedly dismiss all pagan superstitions.

You say that Satan Claus and Christmas are pagan beliefs, that Christians have added to their folklore.

But aren't you being a hypocrite, when you accept the pre-Islamic pagan fairytale of jinns?

You are doing exactly the same things as Christians have done. You have incorporated pagan myths into your so-called "holy book".

You cannot kick Christianity as being a pagan knock-off, when Muhammad did the same things with talking animals and non-existent mythical beings, such as angels and jinns.

You have also brought up the Hadeeth, as some of these are authentic and some are not. Based on what? Your logic?

I am afraid when it come to logic, lot of Muslims are not good at logic, especially when dealing with a chapter on Muhammad's night journey to the "Furthest Mosque", which supposedly said to be temple of Jerusalem, which don't exist except they are in ruins at Muhammad's time.

That's over 1200 km away!

How does Muhammad get there?

The Qur'an 17 doesn't say, but according to one of the Hadeeth, which it elaborated, saying Muhammad flew there on a flying winged horse, called Buraq.

Another myth, in Islam. No evidences required, but a lot of blind faith are necessary.

You shouldn't criticise the Bible or Christian teachings, unless you can accept criticism on your own Qur'an, your Messenger and your religion, for spinning distorting fables and myths.
 
Abdushakur, you have only presented your belief, but presented no evidences to these so-called "miracles" of your "Messenger".

The Qur'an also alluded to King Solomon being able to understand the languages of the ants (27:18-19) and birds (27:16, 20), and speak to it.

It also say that Solomon can control and command the winds, as well as command the jinns and birds to fight in his army (27:17).

Do you also believe in these passages?

I reiterate, I believe the Qur'an, the whole of it as the Speech of Allah, so whatever of the verses are in there I believe.

Muhammad is spinning fables and fairytale about talking animals, having no basis in reality.

It is your or any other mans word against Allah, and I already made clear Who I submit to and obey.

The Old Testament Bible also include talking serpent and talking donkey, but they are also just fables/myths. And just because the Qur'an also include talking birds and ants, it doesn't justify such "miracles" are true.

No one mentioned any of this until you.

Fables, at least the written narratives, have existed for millennia, and the earliest known ones exist in religious texts written in Egyptian hieroglyphs and Sumerian cuneiform from the 3rd millennia BCE.

This is irrelevant.

You said you believe in jinns and jinn in possessing people. What does say about jinns?

Jinn supposed to be a being made out of smokeless fire. You haven't seen one, and yet you believe in them. That's called "faith", not evidences, and it is a blind faith at that.

Absolutely. The Qur'an is sufficient proof for me.

But jinns are older than the Muhammad's Qur'an, in which the pagan Arabs believed in. So why do pagan mythological beings exist in the Qur'an, that supposedly dismiss all pagan superstitions.

Because jinn were created before mankind.

You say that Satan Claus and Christmas are pagan beliefs, that Christians have added to their folklore.

Yes.

But aren't you being a hypocrite, when you accept the pre-Islamic pagan fairytale of jinns?

No.

You are doing exactly the same things as Christians have done. You have incorporated pagan myths into your so-called "holy book".

I haven't added anything to the Qur'an.

You cannot kick Christianity as being a pagan knock-off, when Muhammad did the same things with talking animals and non-existent mythical beings, such as angels and jinns.

He didn't.

You have also brought up the Hadeeth, as some of these are authentic and some are not. Based on what? Your logic?

Based on study of isnaad.

I am afraid when it come to logic, lot of Muslims are not good at logic, especially when dealing with a chapter on Muhammad's night journey to the "Furthest Mosque", which supposedly said to be temple of Jerusalem, which don't exist except they are in ruins at Muhammad's time.

That's over 1200 km away!

How does Muhammad get there?

The Qur'an 17 doesn't say, but according to one of the Hadeeth, which it elaborated, saying Muhammad flew there on a flying winged horse, called Buraq.

Another myth, in Islam. No evidences required, but a lot of blind faith are necessary.

Yes. It is called Eeman (faith).

You shouldn't criticise the Bible or Christian teachings, unless you can accept criticism on your own Qur'an, your Messenger and your religion, for spinning distorting fables and myths.

So this means I will continue with my critique when I see necessary.

Just because people criticize Islam doesn't mean anything. What is the criticism going to do? I have no doubts about my religion, we live and we die for it.

The only people who prevent any criticism of their beliefs are those who have weak faith or lack certain knowledge. All praise is due to Allah alone, that as of now, this is not the case for me. And I have no qualms admitting I believe in Allah, the Qur'an, the whole of it and the only man I blindly follow is the Prophet Muhammad.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Correction: Maybe if I cared enough.

Hypocrisy noted.

ecco previously:
So says the Muslim. The Christian believes differently, as does the Buddhist and the Hindu. That's what's so funny about religion.
You all believe in exactly the same thing:
  • My god is real; your god is nonsense.

Actually, we do not believe this. We believe Allah is the Lord of all that exists, everyone else claims to believe in different gods. The Jews: YHWH, the Christians: Jesus. Moses and Jesus were Prophets of Allah. As a matter of fact Allah is the Creator and we and all things in the universe and the universe are His creation.

So we do not say the God of the Jews or Christians are nonsense.
Is quibbling about the word "nonsense" really your best response? That's pretty lame.

However, I'll reword it for you.
  • All religions believe their gods are the only really true gods.
  • All religions believe other religion's deities are not really true gods.
You all say you are right. You all say they are wrong.
There is no difference between you and the Baptists and the Jews and the LDS and the Hindus and the JW's and the Scientologists and the Heaven's Gate.
 
Hypocrisy noted.

ecco previously:
So says the Muslim. The Christian believes differently, as does the Buddhist and the Hindu. That's what's so funny about religion.
You all believe in exactly the same thing:
  • My god is real; your god is nonsense.


Is quibbling about the word "nonsense" really your best response? That's pretty lame.

Yes, because it directly addressed your erroneous assumption, And this was the point of your weak argument.

However, I'll reword it for you.
  • All religions believe their gods are the only really true gods.
  • All religions believe other religion's deities are not really true gods.
You all say you are right. You all say they are wrong.
There is no difference between you and the Baptists and the Jews and the LDS and the Hindus and the JW's and the Scientologists and the Heaven's Gate.

This is a different argument that has nothing to do with the first one, but good job trying to cover up your iniquity.

Again, this example you gave is still wrong. This is not what I corrected your assumption with.

As a matter of fact, there is a massive difference between us and them. And if you fail to comprehend that, then that is your problem, not mine.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The moment a person adopts these sorts of practice, they have left the Mercy of their Creator and traded it for misguidance. Especially when you attribute it to one of the Prophets of Allah, Jesus.
The moment you admitted belief in a deity is the moment you admitted that you are a superstitious person who believes in the supernatural.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ask me...
Ask you what?

Can you debate properly and honestly? So far that does not appear to be the case. Excessively breaking up the posts of others is rude. Not supporting one's claims is not a proper way to debate. Just trying to help you before you attempt to answer.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I am not a Christian, but the principle is the same. As my headline under my name reads: Qaal Allah, Qaal Rasool Allah (Allah Said, Allah's Messenger said). I have made no qualms about this nor do I deny it. I clearly stated this and I also said I am not an apologist. I am a Muslim.

You are a Muslim apologist. This is clear from your repeated posts of scripture. By the way, do you really think anyone reads your quoted verses?

As for why? It comes from my questions being answered to where I am satisfied. So in order to come to this conclusion, I had to go through other doors until I found the one that led me beyond the dead ends the others offered.
In other words, until you found one that met your then current needs.

Also, perhaps you think I was born into a Muslim family, so you think this is something I was raised to believe. If this is the case, then this is incorrect. I am the only Muslim in my family.
No, I do not think you were born into a Muslim family. I do read (some of) your posts. If I remember correctly you were born into a dual faith religious family. So your brainwashing into a belief in a god started early. That you searched for "your" god is not at all unusual. What is unusual, and a lot harder, is for a person raised religious to break free of the childhood indoctrination and discard all childish superstitions.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Because jinn were created before mankind.
Based on what?

The Qur'an?

The Qur'an isn't a history book, and it isn't science book.

And it is unreliable, not only because it is book full of false myths, but it is based on pretension that the Qur'an was written by Allah, and it supposedly "perfect".

But leaving that aside, you are made unsubstantiated claims about jinns.

None of that you can prove. It is merely based on your belief that the jinns were "created before mankind".

Can you prove that jinns exist before mankind? How do you know this? Can you prove the jinns even exist?

I am not talking about you quoting the Qur'an and Hadeeth, because they are not evidences of anything.

I am asking you to show real evidences of the jinn's existence that are independent of the Qur'an and the Hadeeth. What you believe in, and what you think you believe in from the Qur'an are merely superstitions.

Superstitions are based on fear and ignorance, so they invent stories (stories of gods, angels, jinns, talking animals, etc) of what they believe to be true.

And how do you know the jinns weren't invented by superstitious pagan Arabs before Muhammad's time?

How are you any better than the pagans, since your prophet continue to propagate the same superstitions as their former pagan religion.

My questions are valid in your claims of jinns existence, and I don't think you can prove anything regarding to jinns.

You haven't seen ones. No ones have, except problem people suffering from delusions, who might think jinns and fairies exist.
 
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