Question for the religious: How do you determine which supernatural beliefs to believe?

[George-ananda]

I have read many of your posts, and I find them fascinating. I would really enjoy talking with you.... I believe you have genuinely experienced these things coming from other entities.

Are you open to discussing them?

Sorry to disappoint but I am basically a decades long student of the paranormal and only had fairly light paranormal experiences myself.

 

[sun rise]

There are no "supernatural" events. That said, walking on water, virgin birth, water to wine are natural events. Just more natural fig tree stuff.

Great point. If you take someone from say, 4AD, and put them in a car on a highway listening to music with an airplane overhead, that person is likely to believe it's a miracle that cars run without horses, music comes from nowhere on Earth and a miracle is keeping something in the air that should fall to the ground. And if that person was sent back to the past, he would no doubt tell of the miracles he's seen and that telling might wind up in a book.

So to me if there's a true "miracle" and not just a myth of some sort, then it's a lawful process that the overwhelming majority of people don't know about yet. That leaves me with two thoughts: one that such things might exist. And the second is that "miracles" involve processes that follow natural laws we don't yet understand. It's like the song, "Ordinary Miracle", which gets to the heart of how I look at the world. Life is the biggest miracle in my book.

 

[Abdushakur]

If truth, in order to be found, must be searched for high and low in all religions of the world then God is an unjust God. For those with the internet will have an advantage over those who do not. Those who can travel the world will have an advantage over those who do not. Those who can buy many books will have an advantage over those who do not.

You can't possibly believe this. How would humanity have survived if not for this constant journey? From History, to Revelations. The truth does not come to the lazy, unwilling of working for it, as the truth is a priceless possession. Just like people dig and mine for diamonds and gold, people dig and mine for truth or end up with fools-gold and glass.

This principle of searching is also what differentiates the truthful from the liars, the ignorant from the knowledgeable, and the scholar from the layman. These people are not equal in regards to knowledge, as on had to strive, sacrifice and work hard to acquire what the other has yet set out to find.

This is no different with religious knowledge, especially in this day and age. And regardless of the internet, we have billions of people with acces to information in a way never before avilable, and yet, they remain in the dark, in ignorance out of laziness and neglect. Furthermore, the internet is a cesspool. For every truth, there are 10 falsehoods ready to mislead the person, and if a person already lacks knowledge, it is easy to determine in what direction they go unless Allah has mercy on them and guides them.

No I disagree...The truth that will save us lies within each of us. It speaks to all of us. We need only to open our hearts and receive it.

There are signs in the creation of The Truth, but if the truth lied within us, then no one would be misguided. Also, since people are misguided, then it becomes clear that in order to come to this 'inner truth' you mention, the person has to work in order to reach that destination, by removing traces of hypocrisy and working on sincerity and patience. This idea that truth speaks to us means nothing, people with the truth always speak, but these are the most dispised people on earth, because the truth has not been sent to satiate our desires and whims. Also, we do not control the heart, this is in the Hands of its Creator, and He knows what it contains of goodness and evil, and this is how He guides the person, with Absolute Knowledge of ALL things. It sounds poetic (even if rudimentary) to say these flowery statements, but the reality, as can be seen in this world is that these are just parroted words, they are indulgent, intoxicating to the soul, self-decieving to the intellect, and only [dis]serve to remove guilt and responsibility and rationalize laziness.

Else how will it make me a better person to know that Mohammed split the more? Will it make me more kind? Will it give me greater self-control? If yes how? if not then why must I know?

The splitting of the moon was a sign for the people of his time who kept fighting him. We accept this, and we know from recorded accounts. And this is part of faith. The splitting of the moon was only to show the people that Allah was not playing with them, and was serious of the severity of the warning that was sent in the Qur'an. If you want to soften your heart, acquire self-control, these are other matters addressed by the Qur'an and the Sunnah (hadeeth), so yes, the Qur'an itself is the cure for the heart, as Allah says:

[Qur'an 10:57] O mankind! There has come to you a good advice from your Lord (i.e. the Quran, ordering all that is good and forbidding all that is evil), and a healing for that (disease of ignorance, doubt, hypocrisy and differences, etc.) in your breasts, - a guidance and a mercy (explaining lawful and unlawful things, etc.) for the believers.

[Qur'an 17:82] And We send down from the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.

[Qur'an 41:44] And if We had sent this as a Quran in a foreign language other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its Verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in Arabic and (the Messenger) an Arab?" Say: "It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Quran) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).

The Qur'an is a criterion between truth and falsehood, and was sent down in the current month of Ramdhan:

[Qur'an 2:185] The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Quran, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadan i.e. is present at his home), he must observe Saum (fasts) that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number [of days which one did not observe Saum (fasts) must be made up] from other days. Allah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allah [i.e. to say Takbir (Allahu-Akbar; Allah is the Most Great) on seeing the crescent of the months of Ramadan and Shawwal] for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him.

[Qur'an 3:3-4] It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) aforetime, as a guidance to mankind, And He sent down the criterion [of judgement between right and wrong (this Quran)]. Truly, those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, for them there is a severe torment; and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Able of Retribution.

You said, that we simply need to open our hearts to it, Allah says:

[Qur'an 22:54] And that those who have been given knowledge may know that it (this Quran) is the truth from your Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may submit to it with humility. And verily, Allah is the Guide of those who believe, to the Straight Path.

[Qur'an 39:22] Is he whose breast Allah has opened to Islam, so that he is in light from His Lord (as he who is non-Muslim)? So, woe to those whose hearts are hardened against remembrance of Allah! They are in plain error!

To conclude, Allah says:

[Qur'an 7:185] Do they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all things that Allah has created, and that it may be that the end of their lives is near. In what message after this will they then believe?

[Qur'an 77:50] Then in what statement after this (the Quran) will they believe?

 

[Katzpur]

If we look at the Church of Latter-Day Saints, they believe in John Smith and gold tablets that have never been seen. No one has ever been able to exmine these alleged revelations he received in Upstate New York. I'm from the Tri-Boro Area in NYC. Also, why would the epicenter of Mormonism be in Utah and not Upstate New York? What about the 'magical' underwear that the Mormons wear, and their secret rituals.

Wow. Talk about ignorant. The name of the church you're referring to is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You left out the two most important words in our name. And it was Joseph Smith who founded the Church, not John Smith. Google Pocahontas if you want more information on John Smith. And the golden plates were seen by eleven individuals other than Joseph Smith.

The headquarters of the Church is in Utah rather than in upstate New York because its members were driven from their homes wherever they chose to settle, by the good upstanding citizens of the United States. Is there some law that says a religion's headquarters has to be where the religion was founded?

About the "magical underwear" -- no such thing, pal. And the "secret rituals"? Can't tell ya. What's the matter? Don't you know what the word "secret" means?

You know, I have made it a practice over the years not to bad-mouth or ridicule other people's beliefs, but I just finished reading "Infidel" by Ayann Hirsi Ali, and right now, I'm in no mood to listen to a "Mohammadan" (yes, I know that's an inaccuracy; it was intentional) denigrate my religion.

 

[Katzpur]

So, as one can clearly see, there is a problematic double standard with religion. A Christian, for instance, readily accepts the supernatural claims of "miracles" (magic) found in the Bible, yet immediately dismisses the supernatural claims made by those who believe in Santa Claus, even when presented with eyewitness testimony of Santa Claus, mystical experiences of Santa Claus, and equally strong "evidence" of Santa Claus that they also used to legitimatize their own supernatural beliefs.

So what's a "deistically-inclined agnostic" unless it's somebody who deep down recognizes that believers' supernatural beliefs might just be legitimate after all?

 

[Polymath257]

The splitting of the moon was a sign for the people of his time who kept fighting him. We accept this, and we know from recorded accounts. And this is part of faith. The splitting of the moon was only to show the people that Allah was not playing with them, and was serious of the severity of the warning that was sent in the Qur'an. If you want to soften your heart, acquire self-control, these are other matters addressed by the Qur'an and the Sunnah (hadeeth), so yes, the Qur'an itself is the cure for the heart, as Allah says:

Given that *nobody* else in the world saw this happen, is it just possible that it didn't happen at all? That, just maybe, all the 'miracles' of all religions are stories that got out of hand or outright fraud?

 

[Abdushakur]

Wow. Talk about ignorant. The name of the church you're referring to is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You left out the two most important words in our name. And it was Joseph Smith who founded the Church, not John Smith. And the golden plates were seen by eleven individuals other than Joseph Smith. Would you like me to refer to Muslims as Mohammadans?

The headquarters of the Church is in Utah rather than in upstate New York because its members were driven from their homes wherever they chose to settle, by the good upstanding citizens of the United States. Is there some law that says a religion's headquarters has to be where the religion was founded?

About the "magical underwear" -- no such thing, pal. And the secret rituals? Can't tell ya. They're secret and not for the likes of every jerk who thinks he's entitled to be in on them.

You know, I have made it a practice over the years not to bad-mouth or ridicule other people's beliefs, but I just finished reading "Infidel" by Ayann Hirsi Ali, and right now, I'm in no mood to listen to a Muslim denigrate my religion.

Ye, Joseph Smith, that is correct, and was an error on my part. As for the omission of Jesus Christ from the LDS title, it was deliberate because Jesus did not, in any way whatsoever preach Mormonism.

As for the gold plates, 11 individuals? Who are they, by name? What is their history? Where are these 'golden plates'?

Referring to Muslims as "Mohammadeans" has been done for centuries, and is only the statement of the people of who know nothing. We are not Christians, nor is Islam like Christianity, the Qur'an itself refuts such titles, but you can do as you please, it won't change reality, nor will it impact my personal life.

As for the members of the LDS being driven out by Christians is for their blatant heresy in the Christian religion. I have extended family in the LDS, and I have read the Book of Mormon, and the reality is no secret. Mormonism is blatant heresy. One of their biggest churches in in Manhattan.

As for the "magical" underwear of the Mormons:
Temple garment - Wikipedia
"the garment "when properly worn ... provides protection against temptation and evil"."

This alone is sufficient to know that these under wear are used in a superstitious manner, they provide "protection", which is similar to amulets involving magic, such a the eye that is used to ward of envy and the like.

As for the secret rituals:
My struggles in a Mormon hell: The bizarre rituals of her faith made

"In her book, Secret Ceremonies, first published in the US last summer, she tells of the misery of donning the hideous undergarments she was supposed to wear, as protection from the Devil, for the rest of her life; the bizarre ritual of secret handshakes and passwords and the travesty of a wedding night that had her telephoning her mother the next morning, pleading to be rescued from a man to whom she was pledged not merely for life but for eternity."

Ayaan Hirsi Ali? I don't know anything about this person except that she is a public figure that poses as an authority of Islam. This woman, from the brief overview on Wikipedia, is clearly a puppet...anyone with a bit of common sense, can see that. This woman isn't a threat.

 

[Abdushakur]

Given that *nobody* else in the world saw this happen, is it just possible that it didn't happen at all? That, just maybe, all the 'miracles' of all religions are stories that got out of hand or outright fraud?

Like I said, it was for his people to see.

Why should I even consider your questions and give them credit? What can you offer me to make me reconsider?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

So what's a "deistically-inclined agnostic" unless it's somebody who deep down recognizes that believers' supernatural beliefs might just be legitimate after all?

I'm agnostic but at this point I'm inclined toward the belief that the universe was not an accident. This in no way means that I believe in a personal god or that I believe in flying reindeer, virgin birth, or walking on water.

 

[Abdushakur]

Given that *nobody* else in the world saw this happen, is it just possible that it didn't happen at all? That, just maybe, all the 'miracles' of all religions are stories that got out of hand or outright fraud?

I personally do not have these doubts, whatsoever. So to entertain ideas such as "what if", "just maybe" and other baseless speculations and attempts to cast doubts need to really be based on something other than, "nobody else in the world saw this happen" because this is a personal opinion.

 

[Polymath257]

Like I said, it was for his people to see.

Why should I even consider your questions and give them credit? What can you offer me to make me reconsider?

Well, common sense, the observations of others, the whole of the results of science, etc.

But, if you want to discount those, you can believe anything you want.

 

[Polymath257]

I personally do not have these doubts, whatsoever. So to entertain ideas such as "what if", "just maybe" and other baseless speculations and attempts to cast doubts need to really be based on something other than, "nobody else in the world saw this happen" because this is a personal opinion.

No, if the moon split, we would *expect* those in China, Europe, etc to have seen it and to have recorded it. But they didn't. Even those who were quite interested in events in the sky didn't report such an occurrence.

And, let's face it, simple physics says that the actual moon could not have split. So, even if some believers 'saw' it, that just means they were hallucinating. if they didn't see it, then they were lying.

 

[Abdushakur]

Well, common sense, the observations of others, the whole of the results of science, etc.

But, if you want to discount those, you can believe anything you want.

This approach is nothing but false argumentation.
And this is what seperates between those who believe and those who disbelieve.

I view the world through Islam, not how those outside of the fold Islam view the world. So I believe in this as it was Revealed by Allah, the Lord of creation despite what man and science claims. If it negates any part of Islam, as was understood by the Prophet and his companions, then it is categorically rejected.

Also, I do not engage in these sort of rhetorical and apologetic arguments.

 

[Abdushakur]

No, if the moon split, we would *expect* those in China, Europe, etc to have seen it and to have recorded it. But they didn't. Even those who were quite interested in events in the sky didn't report such an occurrence.

And, let's face it, simple physics says that the actual moon could not have split. So, even if some believers 'saw' it, that just means they were hallucinating. if they didn't see it, then they were lying.

Like I said, I believe, hence I am a Muslim.
You do not, hence you are a kaafir.

You can call it as you like, see it as you want, it is irrelevant.

 

[Polymath257]

This approach is nothing but false argumentation.
And this is what seperates between those who believe and those who disbelieve.

Yes, common sense, the use of logic, and the use of scientific reasoning. Some believers reject these and so eliminate themselves from reasoned discussion.

I view the world through Islam, not how those outside of the fold Islam view the world. So I believe in this as it was Revealed by Allah, the Lord of creation despite what man and science claims. If it negates any part of Islam, as was understood by the Prophet and his companions, then it is categorically rejected.

In my mind faith to this degree is evil because it rejects our abilities to use logic and reason to discover truth. Faith of this sort is one of the main reasons the world is in the sad state it is in today.

Also, I do not engage in these sort of rhetorical and pologetic arguments.

Well, if you remove yourself from reasoned discussion, that is your right. But to expect others to take you seriously is unreasonable.

 

[Polymath257]

Like I said, I believe, hence I am a Muslim.
You do not, hence you are a kaafir.

You can call it as you like, see it as you want, it is irrelevant.

And I will call it like I see it. And I see it from the point of view of reason and logic. That it disagrees with your texts is enough for me to reject your texts.

Calling me an infidel is not an insult to me. It is a badge of honor. I'll accept the designation Dahriya gladly.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Nearly all religions involve supernatural claims, and thus adhering to them involves belief in the supernatural. For instance, Christians believe Jesus was born of a virgin, turned water into wine, walked on water, and rose from the dead, along with other "miracles," which seem to be indistinguishable from magic. These same individuals who believe that it is perfectly reasonable to believe that a virgin got pregnant, or that water can magically turn directly into wine, or that the laws of physics can be violated by walking on water, also reject all the supernatural claims of other religions, and dismiss them without even examining them. They also dismiss the supernatural claims made by believers in Santa Claus (to use a common example).

Many Christians have told me that comparing the miraculous claims about Jesus made by the bible to the miraculous claims about Santa Claus made by those who believe in him is like comparing apples and oranges. They typically point to the claim that Jesus had eyewitnesses (even though the gospels are actually not eyewitness accounts). Even if the gospels were eyewitness accounts, this would of course not make them trustworthy, as studies have been done showing that eyewitness testimony is one of the least reliable forms of evidence available, and is rarely even accepted as evidence in a court of law.

Consider the fact that your belief does not differ much from belief in the miracles of Santa Claus. Millions of people around the world (particularly young people, but some adults as well) believe that Santa Claus is capable of performing the miracle of descending a chimney even though he is too obese to fit inside of the chimney according to the laws of physics. They also believe that it is possible for him to travel to billions of homes around the world in a single night, by his miraculous powers. They also believe in miraculous reindeer who have the miraculous ability to fly by the miraculous power of Santa Claus. And their beliefs are not without evidence. Many people have had real, spiritual encounters, and eyewitness testimony of observing Santa Claus. For instance, check out these eyewitness testimonies of mystical experiences with Santa Claus. https://www.americaninno.com/boston...aim-paranormal-santa-claus-sightings-as-fact/

So, as one can clearly see, there is a problematic double standard with religion. A Christian, for instance, readily accepts the supernatural claims of "miracles" (magic) found in the Bible, yet immediately dismisses the supernatural claims made by those who believe in Santa Claus, even when presented with eyewitness testimony of Santa Claus, mystical experiences of Santa Claus, and equally strong "evidence" of Santa Claus that they also used to legitimatize their own supernatural beliefs.

Well, first of all Santa Claus is the actual Christian God because He rode on a chariot in the sky and blessed people He passed.

Raelians are completely de-mystified Religion. Jesus' mother was impregnated with a laser beam from a UFO; call it DNA mutation I guess. The water was chemically transformed, perhaps a laser altered the type of atoms. Rising from the dead is like we do in modern times. Walking on water was an anti-gravity beam, and yes I checked that the water went the right direction.

The things that Jesus did, like giving the blind sight, are gradually being done in our time. That is to prove to the world that Jesus was from an Alien race that wants to share their technology with us!

 

[Abdushakur]

No, if the moon split, we would *expect* those in China, Europe, etc to have seen it and to have recorded it. But they didn't. Even those who were quite interested in events in the sky didn't report such an occurrence.

And, let's face it, simple physics says that the actual moon could not have split. So, even if some believers 'saw' it, that just means they were hallucinating. if they didn't see it, then they were lying.

You have not considered the following:

[Qur'an 2:20] ...And if Allah willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Certainly, Allah has power over all things.

[Qur'an 74:31] And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire, and We have fixed their number (19) only as a trial for the disbelievers, in order that the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) may arrive at a certainty [that this Quran is the truth as it agrees with their Books i.e. their number (19) is written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and the believers may increase in Faith (as this Quran is the truth) and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Scripture and the believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) and the disbelievers may say: "What Allah intends by this (curious) example ?" Thus Allah leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.

The underlined emphasises an important and overlooked principle.

And Allah says:

[Qur'an 3:7] It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding.

And I will call it like I see it. And I see it from the point of view of reason and logic. That it disagrees with your texts is enough for me to reject your texts.

Calling me an infidel is not an insult to me. It is a badge of honor. I'll accept the designation Dahriya gladly.

The thing is, you haven't seen anything. Also, I said Kaafir, not infidel, and being a person of infidelity is not a badge of honor. If your infidelity is to your Creator, then you have clearly labeled yourself as an untrustworthy person. Someone who is an "infidel" to his Lord, then what does this say about his dealings with people? You clearly do not consider the implication of your speech beyond your limited insight and intellect.

And this is clear in the fact that you took the term kaafir as an insult (because you assumed that I was insulting you), when kufr is (disbelief) and a Kaafir is a disbeliever.

So if this is your knee-jerk reaction, what reason and logic do you really possess? You reject as you please, when Allah rejects you on the Day of Regrets, what will you say then? And whatever it may be will be of no consequence.

 

[Abdushakur]

Yes, common sense, the use of logic, and the use of scientific reasoning. Some believers reject these and so eliminate themselves from reasoned discussion.

According to you.

In my mind faith to this degree is evil because it rejects our abilities to use logic and reason to discover truth. Faith of this sort is one of the main reasons the world is in the sad state it is in today.

In your mind.

Well, if you remove yourself from reasoned discussion, that is your right. But to expect others to take you seriously is unreasonable.

Disbelief is neither reasonable nor taken seriously.

 

[Abdushakur]

And I will call it like I see it. And I see it from the point of view of reason and logic. That it disagrees with your texts is enough for me to reject your texts.

Calling me an infidel is not an insult to me. It is a badge of honor. I'll accept the designation Dahriya gladly.

[Qur'an 6:12] ...Indeed He will gather you together on the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. Those who destroy themselves will not believe.

Convince me otherwise.