Oral Sex

[Trailblazer]

Most who describe themselves as Muslims or Christians are not so ignorant, conceited and stupid that they would consider themselves to be "true" muslims/christians.
Zina (adultery, fornication) does not refer only to penetration, rather there is the zina of the hand, which is touching that which is forbidden, and the zina of the eyes, which is looking at that which is forbidden, even though zina that is committed with the private parts, is the zina which is punishable with the hadd punishment.
(...)
It is not permissible for the Muslim to long for the things that lead to zina, such as kissing, being alone, touching and looking, for all these things are haraam and lead to the greater evil which is zina.

The Baha'i Faith has similar standards of behavior, but sadly these are not the standards of this modern age of permissive sex.

'The Bahá'í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

"In response to another letter enquiring if there were any legitimate way in which a person could express the sex instinct if, for some reason, he were unable to marry or if outer circumstances such as economic factors were to cause him to delay marriage, the Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf:

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá'í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse. The Bahá'í youth should, on the one hand, be taught the lesson of self-control which, when exercised, undoubtedly has a salutary effect on the development of character and of personality in general, and on the other should be advised, nay even encouraged, to contract marriage while still young and in full possession of their physical vigour. Economic factors, no doubt, are often a serious hindrance to early marriage but in most cases are only an excuse, and as such should not be over stressed.'

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex...'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File, pp. 364-365​

 

[Trailblazer]

IMHO, the Bible teaches salvation is via trusting Jesus Christ, not self, for eternal life.

You are fully correct about trusting Jesus and denying self.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[sojourner]

If they were raised proper Muslims there should never be "at the heat of the moment" whereat to stop. Same goes for Christians. If they raise their children according to the Bible, there should be no heat of the moment to stop at.

So you see, your problem is in how you raise your children — not in "biology".

This smacks of “Footloose.” If we can just keep them from dancing...

 

[Piculet]

This smacks of “Footloose.” If we can just keep them from dancing...

Muslims don't dance, with men and women mixing, either. That's all I could get out of your reference.

 

[sojourner]

Muslims don't dance, with men and women mixing, either. That's all I could get out of your reference.

Trying to control behavior does not work. Not here. Kids will rebel.

 

[Piculet]

Trying to control behavior does not work. Not here. Kids will rebel.

You mean..in America? Most assuredly controlling the behaviour of your children does work (in general — it can go wrong) and your claiming it doesn't is a little concerning.

 

[sojourner]

You mean..in America? Most assuredly controlling the behaviour of your children does work (in general — it can go wrong) and your claiming it doesn't is a little concerning.

I’m sure it is — to the psychologically uninitiated. Teaching your kids to control themselves is more effective method.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Neither do they, but they are. And everyone ELSE knows it. And I can tell you how we all know it: because they would not do what they're doing UNLESS SOMEONE PAYS THEM.

Remove the money, drugs, and whatever other forms of coercion pornographers use to gain the consent to exploit other people bodies sexually, for profit, and it's no longer porn, to me. It's just an aspect of personal sexual interaction.

Can I interject. If actors are against murder, should they work in movies where they are perceived as a murderer (or let's say child rapist, or dug dealer, etc)?

How is pornography seen different than murder in that they are both acting just to different audiences of interests-one who likes blood and guts and the other sexual stimulation?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi 9-10ths_Penguin. Indeed, the Law does tell us to show love and concern for our enemies, but as you rightly said, Moses, as well as others, had thousands of their enemies killed. This is because without the death of their enemies, their enemies would have destroyed Israel or subdued Israel. The Law tells us in Exodus 22:2-3 that one is allowed to defends one's home. If one is allowed to defend one's home, one should be allowed to defend one's land. Moses, King David, King Asa etc fought wars and had people killed. But to the most part, they were defending the land that Yahweh had given to them, or more important than the land, the people that lived there.

I know there's an attitude that if someone comes up to you with a gun, you should gently pick up a flower and lovingly place it in the gun in the hope that it will result in peace, but life doesn't really work that way. We show love to our neighbours when we can, but in the Hebrew Scriptures defending the nation was important for self-preservation. If you didn't fight, you died. That was the times in which they lived, just like Israel has a right to defend herself today.

I heard of a Jewish rabbi once and he said if someone comes to kill you, you better be sure you kill him first. I can't say whether I agree with that as I follow Yahshua's instruction, but it's something that has resonated with me for a long time.

So then the Bible doesn't command people to love their enemies? Why did you say that it did?

In terms of consent. They are laws in the Bible that deal with consent.

Indeed: they generally give a big middle finger to consent. A woman is her husband's property. Rape victims are forced to marry their rapists. Spousal rape is A-OK.

And finally, assault is wrong. But taking someone by the arm to get them away from a fight I wouldn't call assault.

Grabbing someone by the arm is also generally less painful than grabbing then by the scrotum.

Have you ever been violently hit or grabbed on the scrotum?

Grabbing someone by the arm is also less likely to cause a man to lose privileges in a society with weird ableist taboos.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Here is a paradox that should trouble the parent of any teenagers. Back in 2000 there was a study done that showed that whilst the number of teens that say they are sexually abstinent is on the rise, so is the number that have had oral sex. Many teens don’t believe oral sex counts as sex and this problem has been growing below the radar of many sex educators and clueless parents. I am going to refer to some studies done in 2000 as this is what I have access to. The study showed that since 1988, the number of boys aged between 15 – 19 who have received oral sex from a female had risen from 13% to 49.5% in the U.S. That means that even back in the year 2000, half of the country had already engaged in oral sex.

It is a mystery to me that adults have no problems giving good advice about the dangers of drugs and alcohol, but for some reason struggle to give advice to the rising generation about sex. In particular, advocates of so called comprehensive sexual education are giving mixed messages with deadly results. Whilst they theoretically advocate abstinence, they also push for widespread distribution of contraceptive devices under the assumption that kids will be sexually active and therefore need protection.

I have never engaged in and never will engage in oral sex. It is perverted sex. I know the right way and wrong way to have sex from the Law and the Word from passages such as Romans 1. And I shouldn’t have to say anything, but I feel here on RF we’re missing some core issues that need to be addressed in today’s society. If you have engaged in this or thinking about doing so you need to ask yourself why. I can’t answer that for you. Perhaps you are watching something you have no business watching, perhaps you’re involved in pornography or perhaps it’s people that you are listening to that are leading you on. Whatever the case, Yahshua’s message is the same: repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

It’s disgusting. And for people who are seeking a holy way of life (Leviticus 19:2), this sort of sex shouldn’t even be named among those who call themselves believers. In the Kingdom of Yahweh that is coming, all such acts will be outlawed. Relationships will flourish and the husband and the wife will have true love for one another and respect each other.

I know many people have no problem with pride marches and demonstrations. Homosexuals will try to tell you that any form of sex is good sex. No it isn’t. Satan has his system and oral sex is part of his domain, not Yahweh’s domain. I still regard myself as a young person, but I have to say, the older that I get the more I see that Yahweh’s Laws are for our psychological wellbeing. They stop us from making major mistakes in life if we obey all of them. Not in the sense that following the Word doesn’t have problems - it does. Persecution is one of them. But we have the strength that comes from prayer and encouraging words from the Word to help us deal with those things. Troubling psychological fallout from giving oral sex can make girls feel exploited and they do it to be popular or make boys happy. Girls may become bitter against boys or choose not to date them and some may choose to date those of the same gender instead.

I can’t change the world but my hope and prayer is that Yahweh’s Kingdom would come soon so that people would learn what true love really means and enjoy the happiness and peace that comes from keeping the Law.

I on the other hand have no problems with oral sex. It seems to me to be at least a great part of foreplay. It is especially an important means for women of achieving release, as most women simply don't orgasm by means of coitus alone.

As far as teens thinking it is not having sex, I think we can thank Bill Clinton for that. Sigh*

 

[Jedster]

Are different positions besides the man on top, and the female submissive, also sinful? It is also sinful to enjoy it? Or to smile? Sheesh.

This reminds me of when I was present at a Q&A session between a Guru and devotees.
The devotee asked "Is it okay t o laugh in the ashram?".
The Guru just burst out crying.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Porn is just a less invasive version of prostitution. And everyone knows it's degrading and humiliating to be sexually objectified and used by others, for any reason. Sure, those who participate in it make their excuses: like they're not really being used or using others because they're getting paid, or paying, and they choose when and how and with whom, etc., but most people know it's just BS. Unfortunately, our youngsters don't because we don't talk to them about their sexuality openly and realistically. So all they know comes from online pornographers who make all manner of greed, selfishness, and exploitation look as though is just normal and acceptable modes of sexual expression.

You are making a whole lot of assumptions here and making false connections as well.
You are mixing issues.

The much-to-easy access to porn (or other unsuitable imagery for that matter) on the internet by youngsters is a completely different issue.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And how many non-Muslims have the self control to abstain from that?

Proportionally, not nearly enough.

The statistics of young muslim immigrants in western countries who sexually abuse women, from verbal abuse all the way up to rape, is widely out of proportion compared to other demographics. They are also notorious for having very little respect for women... Like how many refuse to have a woman as a school teacher.

Such statistical signals demand an explanation. Why are these numbers so out-of-proportion compared to other groups of youngsters? So when one sees how women are treated and what their sociological status and situation is in such countries... it's easy to see.

You remember you made a comment implying Muslims don't learn to control themselves? This would be only an example that you should be able to understand.

And do you remember that I was talking about the specific situations of the extreme cases?
There are plenty of muslim cultures that aren't extreme and which don't imprison their women in their own homes or when in public, in a bag.

And??

So they are seen and treated differently.

I didn't know your complaint had to do with developing skills for flirting with strange women.

I wasn't talking about flirting.

I thought it was about being able to have a normal conversation with a woman.

...who also is a potential mate.

Who? Someone who hasn't prayed for 5 years?

You did. Maybe you should go back in the conversation and read your own words again.

.......to be used to cause division.

Or to distinguish themselves from fellow believers with another opinion.

 

[PureX]

Can I interject. If actors are against murder, should they work in movies where they are perceived as a murderer (or let's say child rapist, or dug dealer, etc)?

In most instances these acts are depicted as wrong, but necessary for survival. And even still, the glorification of them has been detrimental to society (it's partly why we are such an excessively violent culture).

How is pornography seen different than murder in that they are both acting just to different audiences of interests-one who likes blood and guts and the other sexual stimulation?

No one actually dies to make the movies.

 

[PureX]

The much-to-easy access to porn (or other unsuitable imagery for that matter) on the internet by youngsters is a completely different issue.

Yet it's exactly why young people are engaging so frequently in oral sex and why they don't consider it 'having sex'.

 

[Piculet]

Such statistical signals demand an explanation

Do provide the actual statistics.

nd do you remember that I was talking about the specific situations of the extreme cases?

I don't know what you mean.

There are plenty of muslim cultures that aren't extreme and which don't imprison their women in their own homes or when in public, in a bag.

I'm not talking about culture, but Islam. If someone doesn't follow Islam in their dress, I wouldn't necessarily assume they follow Islam in sexual matters either.

...who also is a potential mate.

And do you think this is something that is essential to practice? Muslim can have a "normal conversation" with the person they're about to marry.

Or to distinguish themselves from fellow believers with another opinion.

That's division.

 

[Piculet]

Yet it's exactly why young people are engaging so frequently in oral sex and why they don't consider it 'having sex'.

I assume this is sarcasm, but slightly related — porn is not just easily accessible, it is pretty much forced into one's view. For instance, I have seen ads on YouTube that are supposedly for "dating apps" , but the ad is straight up porn. Multiple random apps I have had have also shown ads for "dating apps" so you get pop ups of porn. It's disgusting. If the ad isn't porn, it's frequently gambling instead..

 

[Mock Turtle]

I assume this is sarcasm, but slightly related — porn is not just easily accessible, it is pretty much forced into one's view. For instance, I have seen ads on YouTube that are supposedly for "dating apps" , but the ad is straight up porn. Multiple random apps I have had have also shown ads for "dating apps" so you get pop ups of porn. It's disgusting. If the ad isn't porn, it's frequently gambling instead..

I think you either need a good ad-blocker, not sign in to so much, or have e-mail addresses that aren't picked up. I never get any such (not even any spam). If I want porn I know where to find it though. Being followed about the internet is more a commercial enterprise concern for most of us but we can get rid of such if we really wanted to.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In most instances these acts are depicted as wrong, but necessary for survival. And even still, the glorification of them has been detrimental to society (it's partly why we are such an excessively violent culture).
No one actually dies to make the movies.

Does that justify say child rapist if someone plays that role?

Though people disagree with child rape they still watch movies because they are entertained. They feel the vengeance, pain, etc of actors and many watch more movies because of it.

You're never watched murder movies specifically to murder and not for survival?

To tell you honestly, I'd rather watch porn than murder of our society wasn't obsessed with deary, sacrifice, killing, and such. It still causes the same entertainment, psychological reactions, etc. Just the latter (depending on the porn you watch) doesn't show people getting hurt or morally doing anything illegal.

But we show child rapist movies and block out women's breasts. It's more of a moral issue. Take a way individual morals, both are fake.

 

[ChristineM]

I assume this is sarcasm, but slightly related — porn is not just easily accessible, it is pretty much forced into one's view. For instance, I have seen ads on YouTube that are supposedly for "dating apps" , but the ad is straight up porn. Multiple random apps I have had have also shown ads for "dating apps" so you get pop ups of porn. It's disgusting. If the ad isn't porn, it's frequently gambling instead..

Advertising is directed, very selective, closely follows your trends and interests (unless like me you have location turned off*) indicated by searches and sites visited. So it seems to me that the reason you are getting so much of what you consider "straight up porn" is because you have searched for same or visited sites with that sort of content?

* With location services turned off the sort of advertising you get is not targeted and i have never seen a porn ad.

So thats a simple solution if you want it