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Oral Sex

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
If they were raised proper Muslims there should never be "at the heat of the moment" whereat to stop. Same goes for Christians. If they raise their children according to the Bible, there should be no heat of the moment to stop at.

So you see, your problem is in how you raise your children — not in "biology".
Frankly, I think that all attempts at ignoring human nature, and turning children into automatons that do what's expected, are foolish.

The religious can't accept this of course, but we are the creature we evolved to be, and our nature is what makes us. When we try to pervert that nature, we set up tensions that often result in tragedy. Fathers slaughtering their daughters for "dishonouring" them (always great fun). Trimming up the genitals to make them conform to "what God wants." Communities shunning or excommunicating the non-conformist. The terrible cost of making everybody feel guilty for doing what is perfectly natural, and turning the best parts of our humanity into something to be terrified of and disgusted at.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Neither do they, but they are. And everyone ELSE knows it. And I can tell you how we all know it: because they would not do what they're doing UNLESS SOMEONE PAYS THEM.
Actually, I think that in many cases you are quite incorrect about that. I've read a lot of accounts from porn actors themselves who confess that they really enjoy what they are doing. And what's wrong with enjoying what you're getting paid for? I happen to love programming, I'm very good at it, and started coding as a hobby before there were 100 computers in the world. But getting paid for it enabled me to live my life AND do what I wanted to do. I think that's pretty cool, actually.

There used to be a Professor at Ryerson University here in Toronto, by the name of Gerald Hannon, who also happened to be a male prostitute. He very publicly admitted that he did it because he truly enjoyed it. You can look him up -- it's real. I knew him.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not gonna talk about my sex life -- at my age it's mostly hypothetical anyway. But I will say this, and mean it deeply -- anything that someone did during sexual activity (in the distant past) that gave me great pleasure, I absolutely loved doing back. For no greater reason than that I assumed that the pleasure it gave me, I was giving them. And that is a happy thought.
Not gonna talk about my sex life -- at my age it's mostly hypothetical anyway. But I will say this, and mean it deeply -- if my husband really loved me he would have gotten a better job 20 years ago, but because he adamantly refused I had to give up a career I went to grad school for and remain in the job I had because we could not live on the little money he made while I got a new career off the ground. Then after that I lost the job I had due to state budget cuts and my husband still would not get a better job, in spite of the fact that he had gone back to school and got a BA degree, so he could have gotten a better job. That was about 20 years ago and that effectively ended our sex life because I had so much resentment.

Now we have plenty of money thanks to me working in a dead end job I hated for eight years while I beat the pavement and I waited to get back into a job like the one I lost, which finally happened after eight years, and because we invested our money in stocks and real estate and never spent any money except for absolute necessities. So now money is no longer the issue, the issue is that he will not do his fair share of the chores around the house and in the yard. But it is the same pattern of behavior as when he refused to get a better job. I am so sick of the whole marriage, I barely talk to him anymore., but we have to stay together for the sake of the 10 cats.

The point I wanted to get at is that I could not care less about sex anymore. If my husband really loved me the way to show that would be to do some chores. I just spent four hours washing the two old cars we have that have not been washed in years. I still work but he has been retired for over four years so he could wash a car, or even mop a floor. But I am not leaving the cats because I love them more than anything in the whole world; so my husband has me over a barrel because he knows I won't leave the cats.

Thanks for listening. I have always known you are a nice person. Belief and sexual orientation has nothing to do with being a good person, it is the way one treats other people that matters most.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Thanks, I never saw that quote.

I was not implying that everyone would become a Baha'i. There is no reason to believe there will be one common faith during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah. There will probably be another Messenger(s) of God and another religion(s) before there is "one common faith."

On the other hand, once everyone knows about Baha'u'llah, as the passage below indicates will happen, it is possible that everyone will become a Baha'i, although there is no away to know when that will happen.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248
Apparently you didn't see the rest of my post:

This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future.

, “Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh” , 70.2

This implies to me to begin with that one faith means that eternal faith proclaimed by all Messengers, that is the spiritual essence of them.

In my opinion, I also don't think the world will have one religion in the next Dispensation. The union of all it's peoples is clearly destined for this Dispensation.

God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant — so radiant that no eye can visualize it.

Shoghi Effendi, “The Promised Day is Come” , 286

This will indeed be the fitting climax of that process of integration which, starting with the family, the smallest unit in the scale of human organization, must, after having called successively into being the tribe, the city-state, and the nation, continue to operate until it culminates in the unification of the whole world, the final object and the crowning glory of human evolution on this planet. It is this stage which humanity, willingly or unwillingly, is resistlessly approaching. It is for this stage that this vast, this fiery ordeal which humanity is experiencing is mysteriously paving the way. It is with this stage that the fortunes and the purpose of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh are indissolubly linked. It is the creative energies which His Revelation has released in the “year sixty,” and later reinforced by the successive effusions of celestial power vouchsafed in the “year nine” and the “year eighty” to all mankind, that have instilled into humanity the capacity to attain this final stage in its organic and collective evolution. It is with the Golden Age of His Dispensation that the consummation of this process will be forever associated. It is the structure of His New World Order, now stirring in the womb of the administrative institutions He Himself has created, that will serve both as a pattern and a nucleus of that world commonwealth which is the sure, the inevitable destiny of the peoples and nations of the earth.

Shoghi Effendi, “The Promised Day is Come” , 290

I will add here that I believe that it is unreasonable for everyone to believe in one religion at any time, given how different people have different opinions, and different spiritual susceptibilities. Is it reasonable that everyone in the world will be a true seeker? Some people will always cling to the former religion.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I will add here that I believe that it is unreasonable for everyone to believe in one religion at any time, given how different people have different opinions, and different spiritual susceptibilities. Is it reasonable that everyone in the world will be a true seeker? Some people will always cling to the former religion.
I am an idealist, so I think that people will be very different in the future, so I think it is possible for everyone to adhere to one religion in the future. I do not know what that religion will be called; it could be the Baha'i Faith if one religion is established during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

I believe/know there will be one religion on the future because what God ordains always comes to pass:

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed, therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 91-92
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If they were raised proper Muslims...

Please......

there should never be "at the heat of the moment" whereat to stop.

Yeah... Another very real problem which manifests particularly in the middle eastern islamic cultures. Simply avoid the problem! In its most extreme forms, this takes the shape of putting women in bags and prohibiting them from frequenting any male not part of their immediate family.

The result of this, is that people, males specifically, who grew up like that have no "shield" to protect them from themselves. They have never learned to exert self-control, neither have they learned how to have proper / normal friendly relations or even just conversations, with women.

Having said that, this is just another instance of a species of "no true scotsman". A "True Muslim (tm)". Where have we heared that before? Oh, right.... right here in this thread, when the OP speaks about "proper" or "true" christians.

Off course, those muslims and christians who think differently will say that THEY are the "proper" and "true" muslims / christians, while you guys have been misled. And round and round the merry goes.


Same goes for Christians. If they raise their children according to the Bible, there should be no heat of the moment to stop at.

Right. Then they can just have sex with their slaves instead. :rolleyes:

So you see, your problem is in how you raise your children — not in "biology".

I raise my children by teaching them how to actually control their urges and treat people with respect, instead of just avoiding it all together.

And if they are in a relationship, I will encourage them to actually sexually explore eachother BEFORE marriage, to make sure they are compatible on that level also. Being sexually compatible in a marriage is just as important as the next thing. You don't want to end up in a marriage dominated by sexual frustration.

Sexual frustration is the very basis of a LOT of horror.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Neither do they, but they are. And everyone ELSE knows it. And I can tell you how we all know it: because they would not do what they're doing UNLESS SOMEONE PAYS THEM.

That's not what "exploitation" is about......
99% of people who have a job, wouldn't be doing those activities if they wouldn't get payed for it. That doesn't mean that 99% of people are exploited.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Actually, I think that in many cases you are quite incorrect about that. I've read a lot of accounts from porn actors themselves who confess that they really enjoy what they are doing. And what's wrong with enjoying what you're getting paid for? I happen to love programming, I'm very good at it, and started coding as a hobby before there were 100 computers in the world. But getting paid for it enabled me to live my life AND do what I wanted to do. I think that's pretty cool, actually.

There used to be a Professor at Ryerson University here in Toronto, by the name of Gerald Hannon, who also happened to be a male prostitute. He very publicly admitted that he did it because he truly enjoyed it. You can look him up -- it's real. I knew him.
1. It was still exploitation, even if not of him.
2. He was a VERY rare instance (if his story was even true).
3. Pornography is FAKE. Made up. And so are the stories about how it's not harming anyone. Just because some people believe their own lies doesn't mean they aren't lying.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
That's not what "exploitation" is about......
99% of people who have a job, wouldn't be doing those activities if they wouldn't get payed for it. That doesn't mean that 99% of people are exploited.
Most people don't hate their jobs, and most people want to do their part in contributing to the well-being of society as a whole, including their own. But our culture is so rife with economic exploitation masquerading as commerce that we don't even see it. And the jobs people really do hate doing only exist because we accept that exploitation is so normal that we don't even see it for what it is.
 

Piculet

Active Member
prohibiting them from frequenting any male not part of their immediate family.
That's not extreme. That's from the basics and it isn't culture, it is Islam.
They have never learned to exert self-control,
you know Muslims aren't allowed to masturbate?
neither have they learned how to have proper / normal friendly relations or even just conversations, with women.
Would the conversations with their mothers, grandmothers, sisters and aunts count as improper, abnormal and unfriendly?
Of course, those muslims and christians who think differently will say that THEY are the "proper" and "true" muslims / christians, while you guys have been misled.
Most who describe themselves as Muslims or Christians are not so ignorant, conceited and stupid that they would consider themselves to be "true" muslims/christians.
I raise my children by teaching them how to actually control their urges and treat people with respect, instead of just avoiding it all together.
Zina (adultery, fornication) does not refer only to penetration, rather there is the zina of the hand, which is touching that which is forbidden, and the zina of the eyes, which is looking at that which is forbidden, even though zina that is committed with the private parts, is the zina which is punishable with the hadd punishment.
(...)
It is not permissible for the Muslim to long for the things that lead to zina, such as kissing, being alone, touching and looking, for all these things are haraam and lead to the greater evil which is zina.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And come not near to unlawful sex. Verily, it is a Faahishah (i.e. anything that transgresses its limits: a great sin, and an evil way that leads one to hell unless Allaah Forgives him)”

[al-Isra’ 17:32]
(...)
The sinner should not be deceived into thinking that he will not commit zina and that he will stop at these haraam actions and not go that far, for the Shaytaan will never leave him alone.(...)
Ruling on the things that lead to zina – kissing, touching and being alone together - Islam Question & Answer
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
Good morning all.
There’s too many posts to respond to individually so I’ll just reply with a general response. I didn’t expect this much response in so short a time.

The very fact that oral sex isn’t mentioned in the Bible should be cause for concern. I think it wasn’t mentioned because the Bible is a book for all ages and Yahweh didn’t want to corrupt any minds. There is a law I can think of in the Hebrew Scriptures that’s principally about misusing genitalia which is if a woman grabs a man by the private parts even in the situation of a fight, the woman was to be punished (Deuteronomy 25:11-1).

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; 12 then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity."

The genitalia has a use. It’s natural use during sex is sexual intercourse, not oral sex. They are so many problems with oral sex I don’t see how anyone could think it acceptable. I hate to refer to my days as an electrician apprentice, but the things my colleagues were saying about oral sex only went to confirm that oral sex is not approved by Yahweh.

The genitalia has no business in people’s mouths and I don’t care what anyone has to say about how pleasurable it is. If I only loved myself, like Satan does, I might be inclined towards the opposing view but I don’t. Pleasure has to be regulated by the Spirit of the Word or else it becomes evil pleasure. Taking pleasure out of doing something that is not Yahweh’s will. My reasoning is if you don’t want to take pleasure by having sexual intercourse with someone the proper way, don’t have sex at all. It’s that simple. To believe something is right just because it’s pleasurable is wrong. 2 Timothy 3:4 tells us that one of the characteristics of people in the last days will be that they are ‘lovers of pleasure’. There’s nothing wrong with sex between a husband and a wife, but they are some forms of sex which are not acceptable in Yahweh’s sight.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The very fact that oral sex isn’t mentioned in the Bible should be cause for concern. I think it wasn’t mentioned because the Bible is a book for all ages and Yahweh didn’t want to corrupt any minds. There is a law I can think of in the Hebrew Scriptures that’s principally about misusing genitalia which is if a woman grabs a man by the private parts even in the situation of a fight, the woman was to be punished (Deuteronomy 25:11-1).

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; 12 then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity."
You aren't the first person to decide that consent is irrelevant to their religious rules around sex, but still... that's an incredible reach (no pun intended) to decide that this verse has anything to do with consensual sex.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
In the back seats of cars and bedrooms-when-the-parents-were-not-at-home wiley, horney teens convinced themselves and each other that abstinence only meant not having missionary sex.

Sure, in that way they may both claim virginity.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
You aren't the first person to decide that consent is irrelevant to their religious rules around sex, but still... that's an incredible reach (no pun intended) to decide that this verse has anything to do with consensual sex.

Good afternoon 9-10ths_Penguin. In Yahweh's Law, He cleverly has stated things which relate to principle so that He doesn't have to list everything that is good or bad in the Law, but one Law can be applied to many situations. For example, the Law in Exodus 23:4 to bring back the enemy's property, in this case a beast, and restore it to him shows that we are to show love to our enemies, hard though it may be.

The verse that I quoted in Deuteronomy 25:11 I wouldn't say is about consent. It's about misusing genitalia. Who would give consent for a woman to do such a thing? Therefore, the genitalia has a purpose and misusing its purpose is an evil in Yahweh's sight. If the woman had taken the man by his arm, or foot, or leg, or head or whatever, this wouldn't be sinful. When it comes to the private parts of a person, Yahweh doesn't tolerate it's misuse.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Good afternoon 9-10ths_Penguin. In Yahweh's Law, He cleverly has stated things which relate to principle so that He doesn't have to list everything that is good or bad in the Law, but one Law can be applied to many situations.
Sure he did.

For example, the Law in Exodus 23:4 to bring back the enemy's property, in this case a beast, and restore it to him shows that we are to show love to our enemies, hard though it may be.
So when the Bible describes, say, Moses slaughtering his enemies and enslaving their daughters (e.g. Numbers 31:1-18) instead of showing love to them, this was wrong of Moses to do?

;)

The verse that I quoted in Deuteronomy 25:11 I wouldn't say is about consent. It's about misusing genitalia.
Right: just as I said. You were treating consent as irrelevant.

Who would give consent for a woman to do such a thing?
If you think that hurting someone in an nonconsensual sexual act is the same as pleasurable sexual activity between consenting partners, then I suggest that you never, ever have a sexual partner.


Therefore, the genitalia has a purpose and misusing its purpose is an evil in Yahweh's sight. If the woman had taken the man by his arm, or foot, or leg, or head or whatever, this wouldn't be sinful.
You don't consider assault to be sinful?

When it comes to the private parts of a person, Yahweh doesn't tolerate it's misuse.
What I think is really going on here is that you have decided that any sexual act except PIVMO is "misuse," so you've decided that God must have this opinion as well.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
Sure he did.


So when the Bible describes, say, Moses slaughtering his enemies and enslaving their daughters (e.g. Numbers 31:1-18) instead of showing love to them, this was wrong of Moses to do?

;)


Right: just as I said. You were treating consent as irrelevant.


If you think that hurting someone in an nonconsensual sexual act is the same as pleasurable sexual activity between consenting partners, then I suggest that you never, ever have a sexual partner.



You don't consider assault to be sinful?


What I think is really going on here is that you have decided that any sexual act except PIVMO is "misuse," so you've decided that God must have this opinion as well.

Hi 9-10ths_Penguin. Indeed, the Law does tell us to show love and concern for our enemies, but as you rightly said, Moses, as well as others, had thousands of their enemies killed. This is because without the death of their enemies, their enemies would have destroyed Israel or subdued Israel. The Law tells us in Exodus 22:2-3 that one is allowed to defends one's home. If one is allowed to defend one's home, one should be allowed to defend one's land. Moses, King David, King Asa etc fought wars and had people killed. But to the most part, they were defending the land that Yahweh had given to them, or more important than the land, the people that lived there.

I know there's an attitude that if someone comes up to you with a gun, you should gently pick up a flower and lovingly place it in the gun in the hope that it will result in peace, but life doesn't really work that way. We show love to our neighbours when we can, but in the Hebrew Scriptures defending the nation was important for self-preservation. If you didn't fight, you died. That was the times in which they lived, just like Israel has a right to defend herself today.

I heard of a Jewish rabbi once and he said if someone comes to kill you, you better be sure you kill him first. I can't say whether I agree with that as I follow Yahshua's instruction, but it's something that has resonated with me for a long time.

In terms of consent. They are laws in the Bible that deal with consent.

And finally, assault is wrong. But taking someone by the arm to get them away from a fight I wouldn't call assault.
 
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