1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

numbers and existence?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by EDDi, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. EDDi

    EDDi perplexed

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,512
    Ratings:
    +972
    Religion:
    Back To Christianity
    Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

    But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

    If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

    Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,901
    Ratings:
    +1,043
    If nothing existed would it matter? :)

    Also it wouldn't be true as it wouldn't exist.
     
  3. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,679
    Ratings:
    +2,454
    1+ 1 = 2 is not true in nature.

    Add and Apple and an Orange and you still only have an Apple and an Orange but humans make up Fruits to find 2
    Add Blue light to yellow light and you get green light
    Add an egg to a sperm and you get one more of a species.

    Add waves 180 degrees out of phase and 1 + 1 = 0

    There's plenty more examples but you get the gist. 1 + 1 = 2 was created to count wealth only not nature.
     
  4. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    10,954
    Ratings:
    +8,381
    Religion:
    Humanist
    I'd argue with that

    1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples; 1 cow + 1 cow = 2 cows
    In maths you can't add $1 to £1; you have to add in the same units.
    You could argue that adding an egg to a sperm is multiplication.

    So, in base 10 1+1 does = 2
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    28,976
    Ratings:
    +10,246
    Religion:
    dystopian Christian
    Some believe so and others, not. In fact a lot of people, surprising to me, believe that 1 + 1 is based on our physical universe and does not exist apart from it. You can assume either way, and the numbers still add up.
     
  6. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    20,067
    Ratings:
    +6,530
    Religion:
    Modern Animist
    Rather, mathematics is an emergent property, arising out of our physical universe.:D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    6,735
    Ratings:
    +1,830
    1+1=2, but for that something has to exist. 1 of something, not nothing, not 2. If nothing is 1, then 1+1 becomes nothing. Thus, 1 is always 1 of something.
     
    #7 firedragon, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,383
    Ratings:
    +14,783
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    Reminds me of a question my one roommate and I argued over when seniors in college, namely "Is there such a thing as an 'absolute truth'?". If one says "no", then they've just admitted there's at least one "absolute truth".:shrug:
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    51,647
    Ratings:
    +22,273
    Religion:
    Love
    And God said "let 1 + 1 = 2"?
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    15,733
    Ratings:
    +7,348
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Simply no. Counting does indeed 'count' something, but only for our purposes. Math is logical description method of counting things developed by humans for our purposes. Math is true, because humans developed it to count things that are physically true.

    1 + 1 = 2 only in base 10 math.
     
  11. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,679
    Ratings:
    +2,454
    My point was that in nature 1 + 1 = 2 is not accurate. Not because of Human things which I stated it is only accurate for.

    1 large Apple + 1 small apple

    1 Macintosh + 1 Granny smith

    Everything in nature is individualist being that, even if you have 2 of the same things like rocks or pebbles 1 + 1 would never exactly equal 2. Its only with man made things that math works exactly. 1 dollar plus 1 dollar = 2 dollars. Science even does work that way there are always exceptions and tolerances in science.
     
  12. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    3,870
    Ratings:
    +3,129
    Religion:
    none
    Your example of 1+1=2 is maybe not the best but I think the principal idea that mathematics (or, better, logic, which mathematics is an example of) is absolute. If there are other universes, the rules of logic would be the same.

    Unfortunately I can't prove this. My only argument is one of (personal) incredulity and even if I could prove it, I could only prove it by using logic.
     
  13. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    10,954
    Ratings:
    +8,381
    Religion:
    Humanist
    I understand what you are trying to say.
    BUT in its purest sense numbers are irrelevant to nature.
    It is only Man who needs numbers to count, measure, estimate, etc. to make sense of the world around. So when you are selling or bartering with apples you will sell 6 apples.When you are playing sport you need to add goals or points to see who has won.
     
  14. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    4,422
    Ratings:
    +1,022
    Religion:
    The Wrong One
    There is no truth in nature, so what you say is not true in nature itself.
     
  15. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2020
    Messages:
    2,140
    Ratings:
    +977
    Religion:
    UNdecided [they all appear to be equally true]
    one being qualitatively "a thing" means the question is flawed.
    since it states a condition where no-thing exists,
    thus 1 cannot be posited, as it could not exist in that condition.
     
  16. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,679
    Ratings:
    +2,454
    In my experience there is absolutely one truth for everything. Humankind has created many more understood truth's based on human experiences.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2020
    Messages:
    2,140
    Ratings:
    +977
    Religion:
    UNdecided [they all appear to be equally true]
    truth, like beauty then, is in the eye of the beholder....hmm...:)
     
  18. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,071
    Ratings:
    +393
    Religion:
    Not religious
    No, it's only a construct created by the human mind, therefore,1+1=2 does not exist without the existence of a human mind.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  19. LegionOnomaMoi

    LegionOnomaMoi Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    10,945
    Ratings:
    +2,171
    It has not "been true" nor will it always "be true" because propositional (truth)-valuation is atemporal.
    Put simply, it is true that "All bachelors are unmarried." This is not true because in this particular universe on this particular planet the term "bachelor" is generally applied to men who are not married. If English the English usage of "married" or "bachelor" were to change, or were gender continue to change from being binary, or were any other possible linguistic, cultural, semantic, etc., shifts were to occur so that people would regard that proposition as definitely false, it would nonetheless be true as uttered.
    This is because propositions, and more generally any abstract symbolic representation (be it mathematical, pictorial. spoken, etc.) are true by definition, at least in the sense of the kind of "truth" by which one refers when one says that "1+1=2" is true." Thus it doesn't matter whether one says "the snow is white" or "Der Schnee ist weiß" or "the ksdfsd copula wssetrersgh", as mathematical/logical-like "truth" isn't contextual but rather formal.

    A more relevant way of putting this is in cosmological terms that harken back to Plato and even before his time. Regardless of whether one considers morality to be absolute, or whether one believes in true Evil (or Good), it is nonetheless the case that IF one considers causing needless suffering to be wrong, THEN torturing someone with hot pokers. But this is a CONTIGENT truth, in the sense that one can imagine a different universe in which hot pokers caused immense pleasure and increased bodily health. In this case, applying pokers to a person would not be wrong, but this would have no bearing one whether or not causing needless suffering is wrong.


    That's because nothing in nature corresponds uniquely and specifically to the statement, any more than does the concept "1" apply uniquely to the symbol "1" rather than "one", "I", etc.

    Addition is a kind of function, or better yet a relation one defines mapping elements of sets to yet another set (these elements may or may not be all elements of the same set). Where it doesn't make sense to say that "a thing plus another thing equals two things" as above, it is not the case that suddenly "1+1=2" is false, but rather that one cannot so apply the statement.


    Math is neither true nor false. Mathematical statements have truth values, regardless of how they were inspired.
    Utterly irrelevant. 1+1=2 is a tautology, as the truth-valuation/relation in this case by definition makes the whole statement true. Were it false, it couldn't be made except in error, as the equals sign would not be the relation that it is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2020
    Messages:
    2,140
    Ratings:
    +977
    Religion:
    UNdecided [they all appear to be equally true]
Loading...