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numbers and existence?

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
If nothing existed would it matter? :)

Also it wouldn't be true as it wouldn't exist.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?

1+ 1 = 2 is not true in nature.

Add and Apple and an Orange and you still only have an Apple and an Orange but humans make up Fruits to find 2
Add Blue light to yellow light and you get green light
Add an egg to a sperm and you get one more of a species.

Add waves 180 degrees out of phase and 1 + 1 = 0

There's plenty more examples but you get the gist. 1 + 1 = 2 was created to count wealth only not nature.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
1+ 1 = 2 is not true in nature.

Add and Apple and an Orange and you still only have an Apple and an Orange but humans make up Fruits to find 2
Add Blue light to yellow light and you get green light
Add an egg to a sperm and you get one more of a species.

Add waves 180 degrees out of phase and 1 + 1 = 0

There's plenty more examples but you get the gist. 1 + 1 = 2 was created to count wealth only not nature.
I'd argue with that

1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples; 1 cow + 1 cow = 2 cows
In maths you can't add $1 to £1; you have to add in the same units.
You could argue that adding an egg to a sperm is multiplication.

So, in base 10 1+1 does = 2
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
Some believe so and others, not. In fact a lot of people, surprising to me, believe that 1 + 1 is based on our physical universe and does not exist apart from it. You can assume either way, and the numbers still add up.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
Rather, mathematics is an emergent property, arising out of our physical universe.:D
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?

1+1=2, but for that something has to exist. 1 of something, not nothing, not 2. If nothing is 1, then 1+1 becomes nothing. Thus, 1 is always 1 of something.
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
Reminds me of a question my one roommate and I argued over when seniors in college, namely "Is there such a thing as an 'absolute truth'?". If one says "no", then they've just admitted there's at least one "absolute truth".:shrug:
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?

Simply no. Counting does indeed 'count' something, but only for our purposes. Math is logical description method of counting things developed by humans for our purposes. Math is true, because humans developed it to count things that are physically true.

1 + 1 = 2 only in base 10 math.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I'd argue with that

1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples; 1 cow + 1 cow = 2 cows
In maths you can't add $1 to £1; you have to add in the same units.
You could argue that adding an egg to a sperm is multiplication.

So, in base 10 1+1 does = 2
My point was that in nature 1 + 1 = 2 is not accurate. Not because of Human things which I stated it is only accurate for.

1 large Apple + 1 small apple

1 Macintosh + 1 Granny smith

Everything in nature is individualist being that, even if you have 2 of the same things like rocks or pebbles 1 + 1 would never exactly equal 2. Its only with man made things that math works exactly. 1 dollar plus 1 dollar = 2 dollars. Science even does work that way there are always exceptions and tolerances in science.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
Your example of 1+1=2 is maybe not the best but I think the principal idea that mathematics (or, better, logic, which mathematics is an example of) is absolute. If there are other universes, the rules of logic would be the same.

Unfortunately I can't prove this. My only argument is one of (personal) incredulity and even if I could prove it, I could only prove it by using logic.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
My point was that in nature 1 + 1 = 2 is not accurate. Not because of Human things which I stated it is only accurate for.

1 large Apple + 1 small apple

1 Macintosh + 1 Granny smith

Everything in nature is individualist being that, even if you have 2 of the same things like rocks or pebbles 1 + 1 would never exactly equal 2. Its only with man made things that math works exactly. 1 dollar plus 1 dollar = 2 dollars. Science even does work that way there are always exceptions and tolerances in science.
I understand what you are trying to say.
BUT in its purest sense numbers are irrelevant to nature.
It is only Man who needs numbers to count, measure, estimate, etc. to make sense of the world around. So when you are selling or bartering with apples you will sell 6 apples.When you are playing sport you need to add goals or points to see who has won.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
one being qualitatively "a thing" means the question is flawed.
since it states a condition where no-thing exists,
thus 1 cannot be posited, as it could not exist in that condition.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Question: If nothing existed would 1+1=2 still be correct?

But then if it did surely that truth would count as something existing?

If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?

Does this mean that our universe is an emergent property, arising out of mathematical truths?
No, it's only a construct created by the human mind, therefore,1+1=2 does not exist without the existence of a human mind.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If 1+1=2 has always been true and always will be true then does that mean that something has always existed and always will exist?
It has not "been true" nor will it always "be true" because propositional (truth)-valuation is atemporal.
Put simply, it is true that "All bachelors are unmarried." This is not true because in this particular universe on this particular planet the term "bachelor" is generally applied to men who are not married. If English the English usage of "married" or "bachelor" were to change, or were gender continue to change from being binary, or were any other possible linguistic, cultural, semantic, etc., shifts were to occur so that people would regard that proposition as definitely false, it would nonetheless be true as uttered.
This is because propositions, and more generally any abstract symbolic representation (be it mathematical, pictorial. spoken, etc.) are true by definition, at least in the sense of the kind of "truth" by which one refers when one says that "1+1=2" is true." Thus it doesn't matter whether one says "the snow is white" or "Der Schnee ist weiß" or "the ksdfsd copula wssetrersgh", as mathematical/logical-like "truth" isn't contextual but rather formal.

A more relevant way of putting this is in cosmological terms that harken back to Plato and even before his time. Regardless of whether one considers morality to be absolute, or whether one believes in true Evil (or Good), it is nonetheless the case that IF one considers causing needless suffering to be wrong, THEN torturing someone with hot pokers. But this is a CONTIGENT truth, in the sense that one can imagine a different universe in which hot pokers caused immense pleasure and increased bodily health. In this case, applying pokers to a person would not be wrong, but this would have no bearing one whether or not causing needless suffering is wrong.


1+ 1 = 2 is not true in nature.
That's because nothing in nature corresponds uniquely and specifically to the statement, any more than does the concept "1" apply uniquely to the symbol "1" rather than "one", "I", etc.

Add and Apple and an Orange and you still only have an Apple and an Orange but humans make up Fruits to find 2
Add Blue light to yellow light and you get green light
Add an egg to a sperm and you get one more of a species.
Addition is a kind of function, or better yet a relation one defines mapping elements of sets to yet another set (these elements may or may not be all elements of the same set). Where it doesn't make sense to say that "a thing plus another thing equals two things" as above, it is not the case that suddenly "1+1=2" is false, but rather that one cannot so apply the statement.


Simply no. Counting does indeed 'count' something, but only for our purposes. Math is logical description method of counting things developed by humans for our purposes. Math is true, because humans developed it to count things that are physically true.
Math is neither true nor false. Mathematical statements have truth values, regardless of how they were inspired.
1 + 1 = 2 only in base 10 math.
Utterly irrelevant. 1+1=2 is a tautology, as the truth-valuation/relation in this case by definition makes the whole statement true. Were it false, it couldn't be made except in error, as the equals sign would not be the relation that it is.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
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