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Featured Not a sin anymore???

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Truth in love, Sep 21, 2022.

  1. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    That fact that one can't give a better reason for calling something wrong than that they read it in a millennia-old book attributed to a deity is wrong.

    Inspired isn't good enough. The Flintstones were inspired by The Honeymooners, meaning that the inspired part is true to the source and the rest artistic liberty taken later. If you only had the Flintstones to go by, you wouldn't be able to tell what came from the Honeymooners and what was added by Hanna-Barbera. Suppose some of that was a message from the creator of the universe, and the others the work of people. You wouldn't be able to tell which was which. The Honeymooners have two neighboring couples comprising two blue collar working men and two cynical, giggly, stay-at-home wives, but wasn't set in the stone age and didn't include a pet, and there was never a child in the families. You wouldn't know that if all you had was the inspired version.

    Whatever creator and rules you mean, they only apply to volunteers. The skeptic can't sin or blaspheme, for example. Those apply to theists that believe that such things exist.

    Not by humanist standards. Believing by faith is "wrong." Calling something immoral because it appears in a book is wrong by the standards for critical thought.

    The comment was," the Bible authors knew so little about our world." Paul didn't know where the rain comes from. Paul didn't know that slavery is immoral. Paul was unaware of oral contraceptives. Paul knew nothing of overpopulation or greenhouse gases. Paul's "well-educated" is close to uneducated by today's standards. Do you suppose that Paul ever saw a parchment that wasn't theological? I can't imagine having a productive conversation with such a person. What would we talk about? Jesus? No thanks. The Roman taxation system? Why? The way to get to Damascus? How to circumcise a child? How to collect manna? That's his world, not mine, about which he would have known essentially nothing - the original claim. Such a person would have nothing of value to offer a 21st century humanist.

    Nothing Paul concerned himself with matters to me at all, and Paul would be ill-equipped to advise any modern skeptic looking for advice.

    I was with you until you got to bigoted. Yes, Christianity is evolving closer to enlightenment values every century, and that's a good thing. Tolerance of homosexuals is a humanist value (not exclusive to humanism).

    And yes, you are correct that people are becoming less tolerant of Christianity, but I disagree that that is bigotry. It's a rational bias, a reaction to Christian bigotry and other problems due to the church.

    You don't? Not all, of course, as this thread attests.

    Do you think Christians are concerned about what goes on in classrooms or the wombs of pregnant women?

    Do you believe that if the church had the power that it would punish homosexuals harshly? I do. And kill witches. I think they'd execute women that got abortions if they could. When has any religion that had that power not exercised it? As best I can tell, the only thing separating Western culture from the Muslim theocracies that tolerate pushing homosexuals off of towers or burning them alive in cages is four centuries of humanism and enlightenment enculturation.

    And there it is, the emotional outburst.

    I'm sure you're very familiar with the asymmetry in these discussions. The humanist virtually never becomes emotional in these discussions. When have you ever see a comment from one using the word whining in reference to the theist's posting? This comes from another asymmetry in the theist's mind: his opinions and purpose are good and holy, and those that oppose him have some kind of character defect, and should go away or shut up. You're the bad guy. Why? You weren't sufficiently respectful of his holy book, which he is willing to call hatred and whining.
     
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  2. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Regardless of that story, the Bible has nothing to say about gay relationships as we know them today. In that time and culture, homosexual sex usually took place in pederastic relationships or between slaves and their owners. It was also tied to certain cult practices. So that's the context of the "clobber verses", of which there's only 6 verses out of the whole Bible that seem to talk about homosexuality. What we now call gay men and lesbians weren't allowed to have committed relationships in even Greco-Roman culture.
    Are you referring to the David Reimer case?
    David Reimer - Wikipedia
     
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  3. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    Homosexual behavior was forbidden for Christians. So I'm not talking about everyone in the world and their relationship with whatever god or religion they say they're in. Here is what I understand, believe, and agree to: God created humans to engage in sex only within the arrangement of marriage between a male and a female. I'm going to go slowly to see how we progress in understanding.
    Genesis 1:27,28 - So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.
    28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

    I'm going to stop there for now so you understand that the original mandate was that two persons, one male and one female, were created to procreate.
    As far as the David Reimer case, I have read about it in the past, and it is truly tragic. Right now as I write that, tears come to my eyes.
     
  4. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Well from the point if view of most Christians this millennia old book book has the authority of communicating moral truths.

    So hopefully you understand why the LGBT stuff is hard for Christians to deal with…
     
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  5. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    I already know what the traditional argument is, including the old natural law argument. I just don't think it's practical and factors the reality of LGBT people into it. I can't in good conscience tell a gay or lesbian couple, especially committed ones who stay together for decades, that they're abominable sinners and will burn for it. There's also many LGBT Christians, which I am one, which is something that other Christians need to recognize - we're already part of the Church, not outsiders to it.
     
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  6. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    And would He not tell us that He changed His mind?
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    Such as not suffering a witch to live, as I was saying earlier. Such as ordering invasive war, massacres of surrendered populations and mass rape. Such as how to own slaves and the correct way to sell your daughter into slavery ─ something I'm sure you wouldn't want to get wrong. Such as God setting up and accepting human sacrifice eg Judges 11 in the Tanakh and the whole of the NT. And so on and so on and so on.
    Not the Christians I know, but that Trump-voting mob appear to have lost track of morality altogether.

    Simply do no harm, and treat others with decency, respect and inclusion. Help others when you can. Help the planet when you can.

    You don't need a god to tell you what's right.
     
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  8. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    Maybe. Maybe not. Mysterious ways, eh? Maybe Pride events are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
     
  9. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    So God says “X” is a sin. The message is repeated often in the Bible. The Bible never says “X” is not a sin. Yet people who claim to believe in the Bible think it’s got it all backwards.

    I have no doubt there is a sport at pride events, but it’s not holy.
     
  10. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    I mean, if the Bible is the only word of god, god is a terrible communicator!

    The folks who wrote and compiled the Bible, weren't they under the spell of the Holy Spirit?
     
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  11. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Some Christians. Many Christians are fine with LGBT people and interact with that community. Then there's the many LGBT people who are also Christians, which people either seem to not know exist or are ignoring.
     
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  12. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is a collection of inspired writings. It’s been through the ringer, but is full of good stuff. It mentions other books, but few Christians are open to that.
     
  13. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    So then wouldn't the Holy Spirit still be inspiring folks?
     
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  14. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    What an arrogant thing to say. He probably had more wisdom in his little finger than we have in our whole bodies.
     
  15. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Why is it arrogant? It is clear to humanists in the 21st century that compassion and duty to humanity is the right option for individuals. Of course we have millennia of philosohers and theologians who have shared their views on morality and humanist duty now what we see of Jesus teaching in the Gospels is pretty obvious. Maybe some modern folks need guidance as if they are living in a primitive society 2000 years ago, but critical thinkers don't.

    probably? You don't sound very certain. But what we read in the Bible about Jesus is not all that impressive. As you note, perhas it was 2000 years ago, but in modern times we have a more humanist attitude. Conservatives the world over are struggling with their value of humanity, and oddly many consider themselves Christian, so hoefully what Jesus taught will sing in to their minds sooner than later.
     
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  16. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    I've studied Paul's writing at length. The man was a genius.
     
  17. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Not Jesus? I can tell.

    More Jesus, less Paul.

    What makes Paul a genius, in your opinion? He never met Jesus. It's odd you don't consider Jesus a genius.
     
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  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    The point is also that there are mental situations where a person is a confirmed pedophile. Many believe such behavior cannot be overturned. It's not like, let's say, someone engaging in adultery and then realizes it's wrong and so he stops it. So if a person has a deeply ingrained tendency to do what is contrary to the guidelines God puts in front of those claiming to be worshipping Him, He also gives the ability to overcome these innate tendencies. It is likely a struggle with such ones but it can be done. In order for a person to come to an understanding of these things, he'd have to really want to do what is right in God's eyes. Since we're all sinful, some sins are more pronounced than others. But the deep desire to do what's wrong in God's eyes can be harnessed, even though it's stressful and requires much prayer and vigilance.
     
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    There are other situations than the tragic David Reimer case. I won't go into detail, but with God's help such serious challenges can be overcome. Our lives usually are not THAT long, meaning thousands of years to endure suffering. And the closer we get to God in mind, thought and action, the more we can be assured He is pleased.
     
  20. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    Oh, please. Don't even try putting homosexuality alongside pedophilia and adultery. That's so offensive and ridiculous. And, no - you can't "pray the gay away". You know how many gay people honestly tried? A ton. They're still gay. Even Exodus International, the largest ex-gay group, shut down because they got tired of promoting lies and admitted the harm of trying to change a person's orientation.
    Exodus International - Wikipedia
     
    #220 Saint Frankenstein, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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