Not a sin anymore???

[YoursTrue]

I already know what the traditional argument is, including the old natural law argument. I just don't think it's practical and factors the reality of LGBT people into it. I can't in good conscience tell a gay or lesbian couple, especially committed ones who stay together for decades, that they're abominable sinners and will burn for it. There's also many LGBT Christians, which I am one, which is something that other Christians need to recognize - we're already part of the Church, not outsiders to it.

First of all, the idea of burning in hell in conscious torment is not sustained as viable from an honest look at the Scriptures. I would never tell anyone no matter how off I thought he was that he would burn in agony forever if he didn't change. Because, like the theory of evolution, it isn't true. The concept is one that is not accurately portrayed by many. The subject of hell is a different subject, and no matter what a person does in this lifetime, there are two factors here -- it is up to God to render a decision as to the final outcome of anyone, and because God is love, He would NEVER torture anyone forever. The thought is reprehensible, and not upheld by an honest examination of the scriptures.

 

[YoursTrue]

Oh, please. Don't even try putting homosexuality alongside pedophilia and adultery. That's so offensive and ridiculous. And, no - you can't "pray the gay away". You know how many gay people honestly tried? A ton. They're still gay. Even Exodus International, the largest ex-gay group, shut down because they got tired of promoting lies and admitted the harm of trying to change a person's orientation.
Exodus International - Wikipedia

A person must want to change with God's help. It can be done. I know that.
Not everyone is going to appreciate what the Bible says and certainly not everyone is going to want to restrain his 'natural' inclinations in order to please God. But I know it can be done, it's not easy. But it can be done.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A person must want to change with God's help. It can be done. I know that.
Not everyone is going to appreciate what the Bible says and certainly not everyone is going to want to restrain his 'natural' inclinations in order to please God. But I know it can be done, it's not easy. But it can be done.

Celibacy, sure, but most likely no change in their inclinations.

 

[InChrist]

So your argument is that the Bible is true because you believe the Bible is true?

That's not good enough for debate. It's a logical fallacy, so we throw it out. Your belief is irrelevant. Facts are relevant. Genesis is not correct factually.

BTW, you avoided answering my question that asked you if it was possible you could be mistaken.

No, my argument is not that the Bible is true because I believe it’s true. I am saying that if you sincerely search the scriptures and seek the truth concerning their accuracy about the true Creator God, you will find the truth and the scriptures will verify themselves and God will clarify His Identity to you.

And, no, it is not possible I am mistaken.

 

[F1fan]

No, my argument is not that the Bible is true because I believe it’s true. I am saying that if you sincerely search the scriptures and seek the truth concerning their accuracy about the true Creator God, you will find the truth and the scriptures will verify themselves and God will clarify His Identity to you.

This is not an argument, it is a set of claims, none of which believers can substantiate or support with facts.

And, no, it is not possible I am mistaken.

Yeah, you have more thinking to do.

 

[leroy]

Such as not suffering a witch to live, as I was saying earlier. Such as ordering invasive war, massacres of surrendered populations and mass rape. Such as how to own slaves and the correct way to sell your daughter into slavery ─ something I'm sure you wouldn't want to get wrong. Such as God setting up and accepting human sacrifice eg Judges 11 in the Tanakh and the whole of the NT. And so on and so on and so on.
Not the Christians I know, but that Trump-voting mob appear to have lost track of morality altogether.

Simply do no harm, and treat others with decency, respect and inclusion. Help others when you can. Help the planet when you can.

You don't need a god to tell you what's right.

You raised some important points, but they are all off topic.

The issue that Christians have is:
1 i belive the Bible to be an authority

2 the Bible seems to suggest that doing gay stuff is wrong.

3 intuitively, in seems as if nothing is wrong with being gay . (Gay peoole dont harm anyone)

Christians have to drop one of these 3 points. And i will not drop any of these 3 points just because you say so (you should provide an argument)

 

[leroy]

leroy said: ↑
So hopefully you understand why the LGBT stuff is hard for Christians to deal with…

Some Christians. Many Christians are fine with LGBT people and interact with that community. Then there's the many LGBT people who are also Christians, which people either seem to not know exist or are ignoring.

I am talking about theologically/philosophically its hard to deal with LGBT stuff.

Sure in a daily life and social context its easy to be fine with LGBT

 

[leroy]

Oh, please. Don't even try putting homosexuality alongside pedophilia and adultery. That's so offensive and ridiculous. And, no - you can't "pray the gay away". You know how many gay people honestly tried? A ton. They're still gay. Even Exodus International, the largest ex-gay group, shut down because they got tired of promoting lies and admitted the harm of trying to change a person's orientation.
Exodus International - Wikipedia

The point that @YoursTrue seems to be making is that Pedifiles cant do anything do avoid feeling sexual attraction towards children..... (it's their nature) but as society we do expect pedophiles to act against their nature and to avoid acting on their desires.

The point is that the "its their nature" argument to justfy homosexuality is stupid. (You might have other arguments, but this particular argument is flawed) agreee ?

 

[Brian2]

The backward ones are becoming more emboldened, and people see those Christians instead of the ones minding their businesses and loving their neighbors. The squeaky wheels are getting the grease and that's how they like it.

I suppose.
It would be great if more Christians would concentrate on loving their neighbour instead of judging their neighbour.
However it is getting to the point where even saying what Christianity teaches about homosexuality is considered hateful and homophobic by other emboldened people.

 

[blü 2]

You raised some important points, but they are all off topic.

The issue that Christians have is:
1 i belive the Bible to be an authority

2 the Bible seems to suggest that doing gay stuff is wrong.

The Tanakh does (though there are all those rumors about which way Jonathan was facing when he bowed to David). In the NT, as I recall Paul is the only one to carry on about the subject, at the same time saying out loud that his own attitudes to sex were peculiar.

3 intuitively, in seems as if nothing is wrong with being gay . (Gay peoole dont harm anyone)

We agree.

Christians have to drop one of these 3 points. And i will not drop any of these 3 points just because you say so (you should provide an argument)

My argument is still that the bible is a poor guide to morality, as I said ─ morally repulsive things like massacres of surrendered populations, mass rapes, slavery and a God who likes a good human sacrifice now and then. I don't think people who say the bible is their moral guide can pick and choose which rules they like and which they don't ─ because in doing so they're claiming for themselves the right to judge morally, regardless of what the bible says.

And they should have the right to judge morally. It's just that pretending the bible always agrees is either ignorance or hypocrisy.

 

[Brian2]

Hi Brian2. Good afternoon. The Biblical Laws have been commanded by a Mighty One whose thoughts are very deep (Psalm 92:5). Although every person is a free moral agent, and we cannot force people to obey the Bible, the Bible is clear in showing that homosexuality is an abomination. But you ask another pertinent question. Is homosexuality hurting anyone? Yes it is. Gay men get human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) at higher rates than other groups for many reasons. It is easier to transmit the virus during anal sex than during vaginal sex, for example. There is also a high rate of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) among men having sex with men. Further, the World Health Organization declared monkeypox to be a global health emergency, and said the outbreak “is concentrated among men who have sex with men, especially those with multiple sexual partners”. This makes sense: all the evidence suggests that the outbreak is highly concentrated among men who have sex with men, and the virus is overwhelmingly transmitted through sexual contact. But even as that has become abundantly clear, there has still been a curious reticence in much of the public health messaging about saying so.

The spirit of the age prohibits negative comment about homosexual sex even if it is true.
I hope word has reached the gays and they are taking precautions.

 

[Brian2]

Celibacy, sure, but most likely no change in their inclinations.

If someone is homosexual that is likely not going to change, just as if someone is heterosexual.
Being a Christian and trying to do what the Lord wants is not easy for homosexuals or heterosexuals at times.
Eventually we do change however and things become more easy.

 

[leroy]

The Tanakh does (though there are all those rumors about which way Jonathan was facing when he bowed to David). In the NT, as I recall Paul is the only one to carry on about the subject, at the same time saying out loud that his own attitudes to sex were peculiar.
We agree.
My argument is still that the bible is a poor guide to morality, as I said ─ morally repulsive things like massacres of surrendered populations, mass rapes, slavery and a God who likes a good human sacrifice now and then. I don't think people who say the bible is their moral guide can pick and choose which rules they like and which they don't ─ because in doing so they're claiming for themselves the right to judge morally, regardless of what the bible says.

And they should have the right to judge morally. It's just that pretending the bible always agrees is either ignorance or hypocrisy.

The fact that you don't like the morality of the bible doesn't make it poor, or wrong.

I also feel tempted to ignore the verses that I dont like, but intelectually its a dishonest thing to do.

 

[Brian2]

I already know what the traditional argument is, including the old natural law argument. I just don't think it's practical and factors the reality of LGBT people into it. I can't in good conscience tell a gay or lesbian couple, especially committed ones who stay together for decades, that they're abominable sinners and will burn for it. There's also many LGBT Christians, which I am one, which is something that other Christians need to recognize - we're already part of the Church, not outsiders to it.

As a Gay Christian what do you say about Christian ministers marrying homosexuals or blessing the marriages of homosexuals?
To me the Bible does seem to be teaching that homosexual acts are not the will of God.
What would you say to someone like me who finds it hard to see that the Bible is not against homosexual acts but who wants to welcome gays into the Church anyway?

 

[F1fan]

The point is that the "its their nature" argument to justfy homosexuality is stupid. (You might have other arguments, but this particular argument is flawed) agreee ?

No, being gay is widely accepted as a natural inclination, in humans and other animals. Any disagreement tends to come from religious prejudice, not reason.

 

[We Never Know]

The point was that's not a universal view. There are gay guys, I've even known some, who don't view it as gay if a guy gives them head, and they see it this way because they aren't the ones doing it. That's the gay guy performing oral on him.

He just as well let the gay guy perform anal on sex with him because they aren't the one doing it. That's the gay guy performing anal sex on him.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The spirit of the age prohibits negative comment about homosexual sex even if it is true.
I hope word has reached the gays and they are taking precautions.

Sadly, the younger folks, hetero or homosexual, are less likely to use precautions than older folks.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The point that @YoursTrue seems to be making is that Pedifiles cant do anything do avoid feeling sexual attraction towards children..... (it's their nature) but as society we do expect pedophiles to act against their nature and to avoid acting on their desires.

The point is that the "its their nature" argument to justify homosexuality is stupid. (You might have other arguments, but this particular argument is flawed) agree ?

Homosexuals do not have to justify anything. They are what they are.
It is those that vilify and persecute them who have to justify their hate and actions.
Do not confuse law with natural justice or religion.
The law of a land tends to follow its people's Social norms and prejudices.
At bthe present time the law in most first world countries follows a live and let live attitude towards behaviour that does no harm to other people.

Hence rape of anyone and abuse of children is prohibited by law but a person's sexuality is not.

Religion in such countries does not have the force of law, but is subject to it.
Countries under dictatorships or sectarian rule tend to use force to apply their laws and concepts.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are not sex toys the best option. You avoid transgressing the scriptures of Abrahamic religions.

Today, we are having a mega crackdown on Child Sexual Abuse Material.

"The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) on September 24, 2022 conducted searches at 56 locations across 19 States and one Union Territory, as part of a pan-India drive against the circulation and sharing of Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM)."
Anti-child sexual abuse drive: CBI conducts searches in 20 States

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What an arrogant thing to say.

I get that a lot. And you might be correct. One definition of arrogant is, "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities." I confess to having a high regard for my abilities (but not importance). Is it exaggerated, that is, unjustified? Is it conceit or justified self-confidence?

He probably had more wisdom in his little finger than we have in our whole bodies.

Here's an excellent chance for you to expose any exaggerated sense of self you seem to sense in me by showing me how I'm wrong, how Paul really is relevant to a 21st century humanist.

I've studied Paul's writing at length. The man was a genius.

So have I. I was a Christian though my twenties. Here's some more of that arrogance - I never met a topic that I couldn't become as proficient in as I had interest to be. As a Christian, nothing was more important than scripture, and I studied it with the same eyes that I later studied medicine with.

When I became interested in learning competitive contract bridge, I approached the highest ranked woman player in Mexico, a retired schoolteacher, and a member of our local bridge club, and asked her to mentor me. She asked me why she should spend time with a beginner. I told her that I can learn anything. That piqued her interest, and she put me to the test. Eighteen months later, I became a life master, and six months after that, a bridge instructor at my club. Arrogance, or justified self-confidence?

Anyway, regarding Paul, if you are correct, you ought to be able to provide evidence of this genius. Paul's forte was marketing Christianity as a religion and Jesus as a messiah to a new market. L. Ron Hubbard did that as well. Is that the genius to which you refer.

No, my argument is not that the Bible is true because I believe it’s true. I am saying that if you sincerely search the scriptures and seek the truth concerning their accuracy about the true Creator God, you will find the truth and the scriptures will verify themselves and God will clarify His Identity to you. And, no, it is not possible I am mistaken.

It's not only possible that you are mistaken, I'm living proof that you are. Here's yet more of that self-confidence (arrogance?) - if a deity were out there desirous of being known, like millions of other contemplative unbelievers, I'd have found it. It either doesn't exist, or it is undetectable, and those claiming that they have detected a god are misinterpreting their spiritual intuitions. I have felt the same feeling, and as a Christian, interpreted it as the Holy Spirit. I still have spiritual experiences, but I understand them as originating from my mind like my sense of something being beautiful or delicious.