Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

[Ehav4Ever]

Hi. I hope you are well. I have a question to ask, this may mot be the forum for it, but if not, please let me know. Thank you.
Here is the question: Many people question the validity of the scriptures. Apparently you believe they are telling you the truth as far as it goes. I'll stick to Genesis to Deuteronomy for the moment. May I ask you if you believe the history there? If so, why? Again, thank you.

When it comes to people who question "the scriptures" you have to ask the following questions.

1. Who are the "many people?"
2. Which "the scriptures" do they question?
3. What exactly are their questions?
4. Have they searched within Jewish sources for answers or strictly Christian ones?
5. If they have checked Jewish sources - have they done so across the entire Jewish spectrum of ancient Jewish communities? (Mizrahi, Yemanite, Sephardic, Maghrebi, Ashkenazi)

This would be the starting point of such a question or consideration. Personally note, most of the people I know who "question" Jewish history often have a limited view of Jewish history and often ignore whole swaths of it. Some I have seen do so in order to come to their conclusions.

In terms of what I beleive, I look at it from a different perspective. I "know" how to ascertain the truth until the system that has come from Har Sinai is systematically proven wrong using the correct disciplines to do so. For us Jews who hold by Torath Mosheh it is not the text that determines what the truth is - it is the historical oral and written mesorah (transmitted information) that we use to determine what the truth of a matter is.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

We accept the 66 books of the Bible as those inspired by God. Many, including Jehovah's Witnesses, have done great research into the history of both the written documents and the validity therein. As far as the understanding goes, there are certain fundamentals that I do not believe the Witnesses have ever been wrong about. One is what is the true state of the dead. (Solomon commented on that, also Moses wrote about the fate of Adam and Eve - no heaven/hell offered.) Another is that we do not believe in eternal literal physical or mental torture in hell. Another, and the thing that got me to listen to them is that they died in the concentration camps with the Jews and others because they would not salute Hitler. I hope that helps in part to understand my position.

Yes, I have heard of this position before. This brings up a question. Why do JW's go door to door? A few months ago some JW's came by my door - going against Israeli law by missionizing. So what exactly is the endgame/goal of the JW's door to door visits? i.e. what is their expectation by doing it? In the JW mindset what happens to someone who accepts their concepts and what happens to someone who rejects it?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Here is the question: Many people question the validity of the scriptures. Apparently you believe they are telling you the truth as far as it goes. I'll stick to Genesis to Deuteronomy for the moment. May I ask you if you believe the history there? If so, why? Again, thank you.

I did a video that may give some perspective on what I hold by.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I have heard of this position before. This brings up a question. Why do JW's go door to door? A few months ago some JW's came by my door - going against Israeli law by missionizing. So what exactly is the endgame/goal of the JW's door to door visits? i.e. what is their expectation by doing it? In the JW mindset what happens to someone who accepts their concepts and what happens to someone who rejects it?

I'm not sure of Israeli law, and how it is adhered to, but I will say that in some countries Jehovah's Witnesses are imprisoned because of their faith. Or belief, following that belief. You do know Daniel's prophecy, don't you, about the statue that was seen in a dream?
A country may profess to have freedom of religion but maybe not really. I like to talk about religion and my faith. Yet in certain sections of NYC, they are very religious orthodox Jews, and one time when I was sharing my faith in conversation, a rabbi threatened to hurt me. That was not the first time of the threat of violence or actual violence in reaction in that area. I am studying the Bible with someone now (not a Jew) who is beginning to learn what is the Kingdom of God, what it meant in Israel way back when, and how Jehovah God reacted when the Jews disobeyed Him.
This is in reference to worship of everyone (not just the Jews) today.
I was listening to a radio show interviewing an author about the displacement of Jews who lost their homes after WW2 was ended. My family came to the U.S. from Europe before WW2. But these displaced persons after WW2 let out of the concentration camps had nowhere to go, some did not want to go back where they came from (Poland was mentioned), and the laws in the U.S. were restrictive towards receiving Jews from Europe that had been displaced for many reasons. Some went to Israel.
So while the world is in pretty sad shape as far as I am concerned, people can be prejudiced (closed-minded?) towards discussing religion in a peaceful way. If someone doesn't want to listen, that's his choice.
Now I wonder, what brought you to Israel from your country of origin? I see you have seemingly a native accent for the United States. I'm assuming you speak Hebrew. The video, however, did not really answer the question except about maybe you think that atheism is ok by God. Which I don't think it is, because the Scriptures say a fool would say there is no God, but it's interesting that you seem to feel that way. Perhaps I interpreted wrong.
Very interesting. Because my question was about the transmission and verification of writings of Moses and the prophets. Particularly for this discussion the writings of Moses. Anyway, thanks for conversation. Erev tov.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I have heard of this position before. This brings up a question. Why do JW's go door to door? A few months ago some JW's came by my door - going against Israeli law by missionizing. So what exactly is the endgame/goal of the JW's door to door visits? i.e. what is their expectation by doing it? In the JW mindset what happens to someone who accepts their concepts and what happens to someone who rejects it?

This "position" of worshipping the true God and listening to His commandments rather than obeying everything an authority says regarding violence in any form towards others is what made me realize that these were true Christians and I wanted to study the Bible with them. We shall see as events unfold. Since you would like me to look at videos, etc., you present, here is something you may want to look at regarding the question you bring up:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books...ze-true-worshippers/video-true-worship-bible/
(Does God Accept All Forms of Worship?)

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I have heard of this position before. This brings up a question. Why do JW's go door to door? A few months ago some JW's came by my door - going against Israeli law by missionizing. So what exactly is the endgame/goal of the JW's door to door visits? i.e. what is their expectation by doing it? In the JW mindset what happens to someone who accepts their concepts and what happens to someone who rejects it?

It's interesting because Jews in the U.S. "missionize" especially for other Jews. And perhaps you may have seen the large billboard promoting Rabbi Schneerson when he was alive as the potential messiah?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm not sure of Israeli law, and how it is adhered to, but I will say that in some countries Jehovah's Witnesses are imprisoned because of their faith.

I don't think you understood what I was asking. The missionary activity that JW's do is for what outcome. according to JW's? I.e. where in their texts do they get the directive to go missionizing and what is the goal they are seeking to accomplish with it? Are they trying to bring about something or trying to prevent something? Or both?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It's interesting because Jews in the U.S. "missionize" especially for other Jews. And perhaps you may have seen the large billboard promoting Rabbi Schneerson when he was alive as the potential messiah?

As I mentioned earlier, there is a Torah mitzvah for Jews to help lost Jews return to the Torah. The organization, Chabad, is only one of a number of organizations that do this. In terms of Rabbi Schneerson, most Jews know he was not mashi'ahh. This is because a person can only be potentially considered such if they are doing the things the Tanakh states would happen but if they die before completing the requirements it is known that they are not. Sometimes what happens is that some people can't let go and often they make up ways of saying that it was supposed to happen this way or that the person would return for a sequal.

 

[YoursTrue]

When it comes to people who question "the scriptures" you have to ask the following questions.

1. Who are the "many people?"
2. Which "the scriptures" do they question?
3. What exactly are their questions?
4. Have they searched within Jewish sources for answers or strictly Christian ones?
5. If they have checked Jewish sources - have they done so across the entire Jewish spectrum of ancient Jewish communities? (Mizrahi, Yemanite, Sephardic, Maghrebi, Ashkenazi)

This would be the starting point of such a question or consideration. Personally note, most of the people I know who "question" Jewish history often have a limited view of Jewish history and often ignore whole swaths of it. Some I have seen do so in order to come to their conclusions.

In terms of what I beleive, I look at it from a different perspective. I "know" how to ascertain the truth until the system that has come from Har Sinai is systematically proven wrong using the correct disciplines to do so. For us Jews who hold by Torath Mosheh it is not the text that determines what the truth is - it is the historical oral and written mesorah (transmitted information) that we use to determine what the truth of a matter is.

Again, when I look at history, 'many people' fought against each other whether in the name of religion or country. Yet here we are as a human population. It was not until I met the Witnesses that I realized they were the true followers of Christ. He had a different viewpoint as to how we were to treat our enemies. But there was a reason for that. I looked into other religions, but nothing impressed me like the Witnesses. Since I believe in God's ruach, or holy spirit, I believe He answered my prayers. My sincere desire to know Him.
As I say, good evening. I learned early on that only God can get a person to 'see' Him. Or know Him.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't think you understood what I was asking. The missionary activity that JW's do is for what outcome. according to JW's? I.e. where in their texts do they get the directive to go missionizing and what is the goal they are seeking to accomplish with it? Are they trying to bring about something or trying to prevent something? Or both?

The activity we engage in is to help others to know what the Bible says and how it is applied to this world.

 

[YoursTrue]

When it comes to people who question "the scriptures" you have to ask the following questions.

1. Who are the "many people?"
2. Which "the scriptures" do they question?
3. What exactly are their questions?
4. Have they searched within Jewish sources for answers or strictly Christian ones?
5. If they have checked Jewish sources - have they done so across the entire Jewish spectrum of ancient Jewish communities? (Mizrahi, Yemanite, Sephardic, Maghrebi, Ashkenazi)

This would be the starting point of such a question or consideration. Personally note, most of the people I know who "question" Jewish history often have a limited view of Jewish history and often ignore whole swaths of it. Some I have seen do so in order to come to their conclusions.

In terms of what I beleive, I look at it from a different perspective. I "know" how to ascertain the truth until the system that has come from Har Sinai is systematically proven wrong using the correct disciplines to do so. For us Jews who hold by Torath Mosheh it is not the text that determines what the truth is - it is the historical oral and written mesorah (transmitted information) that we use to determine what the truth of a matter is.

If you can't understand what I mean by "many people" in #1 question, as the astronaut said some time ago, "We have a problem..."

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Since you would like me to look at videos, etc., you present, here is something you may want to look at regarding the question you bring up:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books...ze-true-worshippers/video-true-worship-bible/
(Does God Accept All Forms of Worship?)

In terms of watching JW's videos. Please understand that I first answered questions before I presented videos to back up what I was talking about. I know about the JW's positions but I also know that there are some things they won't directly answer - even if it is a simple answer. My questions have nothing to do wiht worship. It is about what goal is the JW looking to get out of missionizing?

For example, I have already answered the question of why there are Jews who try to convince other Jews to "return" to the Torah. I.e. there is a command from the Torah to do so. Further, if someone is a Jew in the modern day who and they don't keep Torah they often come from a family that did keep the Torah. For example, their parents, grandparents or at least great grandparents kept the Torah. So they are not converting to something that their family didn't already come from. In the case of Christian missionizing, they are trying to convince a Jew to join something that their "Fathers did not know."

That is a difference. So I am trying to understand, in short, from you - what is the JW goal with missionizing? It is related to something we discussed already.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The activity we engage in is to help others to know what the Bible says and how it is applied to this world.

Since we Jews already know what the Tanakh says, what would a JW hope to gain from missionizing to a Jew? Is the goal to convince Jews who don't keep Torah to return to the Torah and Halakha that Jews received from Mount Sinai? If a JW is missionizing to a Jew who keeps Torah and Halakha from Mount Sinai is the goal to change something about said Torah based Jew? If so, what do JW's consider to the consequence from a Jew accepting the JW stance or rejecting it?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If you can't understand what I mean by "many people" in #1 question, as the astronaut said some time ago, "We have a problem..."

I work on specifics. Anyone can say "many people" and what they really mean is, "only a few people" or "I really don't know anyone specific - this is just what I think." If a person challenges something it is important to know "who" they are what their challenges are. It is also important to know if they really of checked all the different angles or if their challenges is because they have not checked all the different angles. For example, I know a large of the reasons why certain segments of Israeli society don't keep the Torah. I have lived here and interacted with enough people to know a large number of the reasons. So if I were to use the statement "many people" and you asked me to qaulify the statement I could. Each type of person is different and each segment of society has different reasons. That is what I mean.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

ruach, or holy spirit.

Side question. Why do you call a "ruach" a "holy spirit?"

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm assuming you speak Hebrew. The video, however, did not really answer the question except about maybe you think that atheism is ok by God. Which I don't think it is, because the Scriptures say a fool would say there is no God, but it's interesting that you seem to feel that way. Perhaps I interpreted wrong.
Very interesting. Because my question was about the transmission and verification of writings of Moses and the prophets. Particularly for this discussion the writings of Moses. Anyway, thanks for conversation. Erev tov.

Yes, I speak Hebrew. Given that the word "god" does not show up in the Hebrew Tanakh one has to know what is actually there and what the words in the text of the Hebrew Tanakh actually means. I explained that in the video. Also, I explained how Athiests define themselves and what their definitions are and those definitions are different than what is found in the Hebrew Tanakh.

Also, in the video I explained the verificiation process. I.e. it is not a written text verification only. It is a veritification of a oral and written claims of the Torah and how it was received. Jews being the ones who received it in the past, a Jew in the modern day descends from the Jews who are "claimed" to have received it in the past. Thus, a Jew would have to use the same investigation process used by historians when determining if a claim in history took place or not of our own ancestors.

For example, a person who descends from the American "founding fathers" would have a historical method of investigating if the American revolution took place or not that would start with what has been passed down through their family orally and in written form and then investigate the archeology and 2nd - 3rd hand sources.

This is normally called in historical verification "convergence of facts." Torah based Jews do this verification every day from childhood to the grave and have been doing so for thousands of years.

 

[YoursTrue]

In terms of watching JW's videos. Please understand that I first answered questions before I presented videos to back up what I was talking about. I know about the JW's positions but I also know that there are some things they won't directly answer - even if it is a simple answer. My questions have nothing to do wiht worship. It is about what goal is the JW looking to get out of missionizing?

For example, I have already answered the question of why there are Jews who try to convince other Jews to "return" to the Torah. I.e. there is a command from the Torah to do so. Further, if someone is a Jew in the modern day who and they don't keep Torah they often come from a family that did keep the Torah. For example, their parents, grandparents or at least great grandparents kept the Torah. So they are not converting to something that their family didn't already come from. In the case of Christian missionizing, they are trying to convince a Jew to join something that their "Fathers did not know."

That is a difference. So I am trying to understand, in short, from you - what is the JW goal with missionizing? It is related to something we discussed already.

I think I told you. You may also want to look up on the jw.org website "What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe"? Only God can reveal the truth to you. It seems like a mystery maybe it is. Seek and ye shall find. You can look up many topics there.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I speak Hebrew. Given that the word "god" does not show up in the Hebrew Tanakh one has to know what is actually there and what the words in the text of the Hebrew Tanakh actually means. I explained that in the video. Also, I explained how Athiests define themselves and what their definitions are and those definitions are different than what is found in the Hebrew Tanakh.

Also, in the video I explained the verificiation process. I.e. it is not a written text verification only. It is a veritification of a oral and written claims of the Torah and how it was received. Jews being the ones who received it in the past, a Jew in the modern day descends from the Jews who are "claimed" to have received it in the past. Thus, a Jew would have to use the same investigation process used by historians when determining if a claim in history took place or not of our own ancestors.

For example, a person who descends from the American "founding fathers" would have a historical method of investigating if the American revolution took place or not that would start with what has been passed down through their family orally and in written form and then investigate the archeology and 2nd - 3rd hand sources.

This is normally called in historical verification "convergence of facts." Torah based Jews do this verification every day from childhood to the grave and have been doing so for thousands of years.

What do you mean the word god does not show up in the Hebrew tanach?

Yes, I speak Hebrew. Given that the word "god" does not show up in the Hebrew Tanakh one has to know what is actually there and what the words in the text of the Hebrew Tanakh actually means. I explained that in the video. Also, I explained how Athiests define themselves and what their definitions are and those definitions are different than what is found in the Hebrew Tanakh.

Also, in the video I explained the verificiation process. I.e. it is not a written text verification only. It is a veritification of a oral and written claims of the Torah and how it was received. Jews being the ones who received it in the past, a Jew in the modern day descends from the Jews who are "claimed" to have received it in the past. Thus, a Jew would have to use the same investigation process used by historians when determining if a claim in history took place or not of our own ancestors.

For example, a person who descends from the American "founding fathers" would have a historical method of investigating if the American revolution took place or not that would start with what has been passed down through their family orally and in written form and then investigate the archeology and 2nd - 3rd hand sources.

This is normally called in historical verification "convergence of facts." Torah based Jews do this verification every day from childhood to the grave and have been doing so for thousands of years.

Ok so the verification process convinced you that what? What Moses wrote is true?

 

[YoursTrue]

Side question. Why do you call a "ruach" a "holy spirit?"

I added the word holy. It means spirit. But to come to know God can only be done by God. Since I am not the expert, I am also learning, I suggest you refer to the jw.org website to get further answers.

 

[YoursTrue]

Since we Jews already know what the Tanakh says, what would a JW hope to gain from missionizing to a Jew? Is the goal to convince Jews who don't keep Torah to return to the Torah and Halakha that Jews received from Mount Sinai? If a JW is missionizing to a Jew who keeps Torah and Halakha from Mount Sinai is the goal to change something about said Torah based Jew? If so, what do JW's consider to the consequence from a Jew accepting the JW stance or rejecting it?

My family is Jewish. I went to synagogue with them for years. I can guarantee you they do not know what the Tanach says.