Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

[Ehav4Ever]

Again -- you make sense (although I don't always agree with you...<smile>). But -- and it's a big but -- in the case of Jews such as Einstein and others who kind of gave up, or were not taught much about the deeper aspects of religion, their lot was more or less cast for them by virtue of their lineage. They did not join a group, they may have been pushed along by it, regardless of their personal beliefs.

Even when the Torah was given by Hashem any Jew who chooses to opt out could do so. What Einstein situation was was only known to Einstein. So, I can't answer for him. Again, there is a big difference between religion and Torath Mosheh. A person who was born to a family can investigate what the truth is and not stop until they find the most logical reality is. Hashem, at the end of day, is the one who knows what a person's life deserves and only Hashem knows what correct conclusions a person can to before they passed. For example, if a person makes shuvah prior to passing away that is accepted by Hashem, even if they spent a lifetime not doig mitzvoth.

Yes, but, what is the outcome? I mean if a person believes to follow those rules, commandments, mitzvoth or whatever you call them -- what do you say is the outcome? It's kind of like the laws of physics. But I say no more, awaiting your answer.

The Hebrew Tanakh and Jewish sources state that the result of a non-Jew who keeps the Noachide mitzvoth are a) they derive the pleasure of doing mitzvoth that Hashem gave, b) they receive the good that Hashem has alloted to them in this word, and c) they receive a portion in the world to come.

When you say "Jewish nation," I have a few things to say about that, but maybe not now. And especially if you're going, which I am very sorry to hear, even if we don't talk too frequently. Nevertheless, suffice it to say I have very much enjoyed our conversations. Especially for a girl from Brooklyn.

Jewish nation meaning the Torah based Jewish community, whether in the land of Israel with a Torah based nation established or when we are in exile. A person who converts to Torath Mosheh is considered just as Jewish as someone who was born to Jewish parents.

I go back to the first point which is, what is the outcome, do you say, for those following the mitzvoth?

a) they derive the pleasure of doing mitzvoth that Hashem gave, b) they receive the good that Hashem has alloted to them in this word for doing the mitzvoth allotted for them to do, and c) they receive a portion in the world to come.

Further, as another poster brings out, talking about the Kohens, then what? It gets a little complicated, to use a term, shall we say? So what is the outcome?

Here is a web-site that gives information about Kohanim and Levites. It serves as a registry for Kohens and Levites to input their family/geneology information.

Cohen-Levi Family Heritage - The Tribe[/QUOTE]

 

[Ehav4Ever]

How can ANYONE take on the 613 laws? That is why the law is (really was) instrumental in explaining what it means to obey HaShem and live.

First, the Torah never claims that any individual Jew was supposed to keep 613 laws.

If one reads the Hebrew Torah it is clear that the 613 mitzvoth of the Torah are kept by the entire nation.

A large portion of them deal with Temple management and another large portion deals with agriculture. More than half of them are warnings of what not to do. Mitzvoth that are specific to me are of course not kept by women. Mitzvoth dealing with women are of course not kept by men. Mitzvoth specific to someone who comes from the male liniage of Aharon have mitzvoth that ONLY THEY have to keep are forbidden for a non-Aharon descendant to do. There are mitzvoth that deal with business, there are mitzvoth that deal with the military, there are mitzvoth that deal the Judicial system.

Most Jews, male or female, are only responsible for about 6-10 mitzvoth personally depending on who they are and what their job function is. Some people may have up to 20 mitzvoth, depending on their family situation-job-etc.

If someone were to say that a Jewish nation "can't" keep 613 mitzvoth then one has to say that the American nation cannot keep its own Constitution and State laws. There are way more laws in the American system of government and among states. Even the laws of driving a car are numerous and complex and vary from state to state.

As somone on Quora.com stated:

In 1980, the General Accounting Office was tasked by Congress to determine how many Federal laws existed. By 1984 they hadn’t yet received a response. When asked why this was the case, the GAO stated that they were still counting. At that point they were up to about 3,000 and had only just touched the tip of the iceberg, as they say. It was estimated, at that time, that at the rate at which Congress was passing laws, by the year 2000 there would be in excess of 20,000 laws.​

So, using the same mindset. How can any American keep 3,000 or 20,000 laws? Can any American observe all the local and state laws of driving? Are you as an indiviual required to keep the laws of farming or police work if you are not a farmer or police officer?

Besides, Hashem stated clearly in the Torah that the Jewish nation of any generation can keep the 613 mitzvoth and to not think someone has to come down from the sky or from acorss the sea to help keep it. Obviously, if Hashem said it - it must be true.

 

[YoursTrue]

First, the Torah never claims that any individual Jew was supposed to keep 613 laws.

If one reads the Hebrew Torah it is clear that the 613 mitzvoth of the Torah are kept by the entire nation.

A large portion of them deal with Temple management and another large portion deals with agriculture. More than half of them are warnings of what not to do. Mitzvoth that are specific to me are of course not kept by women. Mitzvoth dealing with women are of course not kept by men. Mitzvoth specific to someone who comes from the male liniage of Aharon have mitzvoth that ONLY THEY have to keep are forbidden for a non-Aharon descendant to do. There are mitzvoth that deal with business, there are mitzvoth that deal with the military, there are mitzvoth that deal the Judicial system.

Most Jews, male or female, are only responsible for about 6-10 mitzvoth personally depending on who they are and what their job function is. Some people may have up to 20 mitzvoth, depending on their family situation-job-etc.

If someone were to say that a Jewish nation "can't" keep 613 mitzvoth then one has to say that the American nation cannot keep its own Constitution and State laws. There are way more laws in the American system of government and among states. Even the laws of driving a car are numerous and complex and vary from state to state.

As somone on Quora.com stated:

In 1980, the General Accounting Office was tasked by Congress to determine how many Federal laws existed. By 1984 they hadn’t yet received a response. When asked why this was the case, the GAO stated that they were still counting. At that point they were up to about 3,000 and had only just touched the tip of the iceberg, as they say. It was estimated, at that time, that at the rate at which Congress was passing laws, by the year 2000 there would be in excess of 20,000 laws.​

So, using the same mindset. How can any American keep 3,000 or 20,000 laws? Can any American observe all the local and state laws of driving? Are you as an indiviual required to keep the laws of farming or police work if you are not a farmer or police officer?

Besides, Hashem stated clearly in the Torah that the Jewish nation of any generation can keep the 613 mitzvoth and to not think someone has to come down from the sky or from acorss the sea to help keep it. Obviously, if Hashem said it - it must be true.

Of course there were sacrifices for sin. And on occasion the entire nation had to offer sin sacrifices, is that right?
Done also on a yearly basis. Odd that the sacrifices were written into the Law, so that tells me that God knew they (?) either individually or as a nation would not - could not - keep it.
In reference to the comparison between the laws of the United States, some people might think these laws or constitution was given by God. Some of the founders were religious, if not most or all of them. But the Law of Moses was in a different category. As I am reading now Exodus 33, I see where Moses went into his tent and spoke personally with God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Even when the Torah was given by Hashem any Jew who chooses to opt out could do so. What Einstein situation was was only known to Einstein. So, I can't answer for him. Again, there is a big difference between religion and Torath Mosheh. A person who was born to a family can investigate what the truth is and not stop until they find the most logical reality is. Hashem, at the end of day, is the one who knows what a person's life deserves and only Hashem knows what correct conclusions a person can to before they passed. For example, if a person makes shuvah prior to passing away that is accepted by Hashem, even if they spent a lifetime not doig mitzvoth.



The Hebrew Tanakh and Jewish sources state that the result of a non-Jew who keeps the Noachide mitzvoth are a) they derive the pleasure of doing mitzvoth that Hashem gave, b) they receive the good that Hashem has alloted to them in this word, and c) they receive a portion in the world to come.



Jewish nation meaning the Torah based Jewish community, whether in the land of Israel with a Torah based nation established or when we are in exile. A person who converts to Torath Mosheh is considered just as Jewish as someone who was born to Jewish parents.



a) they derive the pleasure of doing mitzvoth that Hashem gave, b) they receive the good that Hashem has alloted to them in this word for doing the mitzvoth allotted for them to do, and c) they receive a portion in the world to come.

Yes, the world to come.

 

[YoursTrue]

Even when the Torah was given by Hashem any Jew who chooses to opt out could do so. What Einstein situation was was only known to Einstein. So, I can't answer for him. Again, there is a big difference between religion and Torath Mosheh. A person who was born to a family can investigate what the truth is and not stop until they find the most logical reality is. Hashem, at the end of day, is the one who knows what a person's life deserves and only Hashem knows what correct conclusions a person can to before they passed. For example, if a person makes shuvah prior to passing away that is accepted by Hashem, even if they spent a lifetime not doig mitzvoth.



The Hebrew Tanakh and Jewish sources state that the result of a non-Jew who keeps the Noachide mitzvoth are a) they derive the pleasure of doing mitzvoth that Hashem gave, b) they receive the good that Hashem has alloted to them in this word, and c) they receive a portion in the world to come.



Jewish nation meaning the Torah based Jewish community, whether in the land of Israel with a Torah based nation established or when we are in exile. A person who converts to Torath Mosheh is considered just as Jewish as someone who was born to Jewish parents.



a) they derive the pleasure of doing mitzvoth that Hashem gave, b) they receive the good that Hashem has alloted to them in this word for doing the mitzvoth allotted for them to do, and c) they receive a portion in the world to come.



Here is a web-site that gives information about Kohanim and Levites. It serves as a registry for Kohens and Levites to input their family/geneology information.

Cohen-Levi Family Heritage - The Tribe

[/QUOTE]
I have been reading a book describing a very religious Orthodox family and it is very interesting. It is a work of fiction but seems to be accurate. Written by Eric Segal. Perhaps you have heard of him, son of a rabbi, lived in the same neighborhood we did in New York. That being said, I notice from my reading in Exodus 32 that Moses got so angry when he was coming down from the mountain that he threw the tablets down. Or smashed them, however. I knew this and many people know this, but do not put it in perspective. God was so annoyed (maybe not a good word) that he threatened to get rid of the whole nation and wouldn't let them put on ornaments. Moses spoke to the Creator. Chapter 34 shows that God said he is a jealous God and yet would send out their enemies. So I take from this that He isn't kidding. About being jealous, blessing whom He wll bless, and not blessing even those among the people that infuriate Him. Again, peace.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Of course there were sacrifices for sin. And on occasion the entire nation had to offer sin sacrifices, is that right?
Done also on a yearly basis. Odd that the sacrifices were written into the Law, so that tells me that God knew they (?) either individually or as a nation would not - could not - keep it.

Again, what you have written contradicts what Hashem stated in the Hebrew Torah. Further, there were no "sin sacrifices" as the term means in the English speaking western world. What you are describing is how the western world views English translations of the Christian bible and not a concept found in the Hebrew Tanakh. If you were to sit down with a Torath Mosheh Jew and have them read the Hebrew text to you - you would find that the concepts you mentioned are not what is found in the text.

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, what you have written contradicts what Hashem stated in the Hebrew Torah. Further, there were no "sin sacrifices" as the term means in the English speaking western world. What you are describing is how the western world views English translations of the Christian bible and not a concept found in the Hebrew Tanakh. If you were to sit down with a Torath Mosheh Jew and have them read the Hebrew text to you - you would find that the concepts you mentioned are not what is found in the text.

ok. I still think there were sacrifices for sin. I won't keep going over it until I'm more sure of this.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

ok. I still think there were sacrifices for sin. I won't keep going over it until I'm more sure of this.

According to Greek Christian scriptures it is quite possible that the concept of "sacrifice" for the sake of "sin", as the NT defines it, is 100% in the Greek Christian scriptures and translations of them; as well as the concept that no one can keep the instructions of a God.

Yet, those are not statements or concepts not found in the Hebrew Tanakh texts of any type. So, there is no debate between us.

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, what you have written contradicts what Hashem stated in the Hebrew Torah. Further, there were no "sin sacrifices" as the term means in the English speaking western world. What you are describing is how the western world views English translations of the Christian bible and not a concept found in the Hebrew Tanakh. If you were to sit down with a Torath Mosheh Jew and have them read the Hebrew text to you - you would find that the concepts you mentioned are not what is found in the text.

Thank you for your response which caused me to look more into the holy scriptures. Perhaps you could explain, if you would, what Exodus chapter 29 verse 36 means for starters when HaShem told Moses to offer a bull daily as a sin offering for atonement. For the altar. Ok? When you look it up in your Hebrew tanach, perhaps you can work on it in English for those who don't understand Hebrew. I will look later. But it was good to check, thank you so much. I mean Yom Kippur was certainly a day for atonement. Let's stick to the bull offering.

 

[YoursTrue]

According to Greek Christian scriptures it is quite possible that the concept of "sacrifice" for the sake of "sin", as the NT defines it, is 100% in the Greek Christian scriptures and translations of them; as well as the concept that no one can keep the instructions of a God.

Yet, those are not statements or concepts not found in the Hebrew Tanakh texts of any type. So, there is no debate between us.

Debate? No. Conversation? Yes. Going back again to the bull offerings commanded by God to Moses to the nation.

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, what you have written contradicts what Hashem stated in the Hebrew Torah. Further, there were no "sin sacrifices" as the term means in the English speaking western world. What you are describing is how the western world views English translations of the Christian bible and not a concept found in the Hebrew Tanakh. If you were to sit down with a Torath Mosheh Jew and have them read the Hebrew text to you - you would find that the concepts you mentioned are not what is found in the text.

I looked for the first use of the word 'sin' in the scriptures and see it occurs at Genesis 4:7 where God spoke to Cain. חַטָּ֣את first use at Genesis 4:7. I also checked more about it on an informational website and see the following about the Jewish understanding of sin. Don't know if you agree with it. It says in part (link to follow):
"according to Jewish beliefs, a person sins when he or she strays away from making good, correct choices. It is believed that a person's inclination, called yetzer, is an instinctual force that can send people astray and lead them into sin unless one deliberately chooses otherwise. The principle of yetzer has sometimes been compared to Freud's concept of the id--a pleasure-seeking instinct that aims at self-gratification at the expense of reasoned choice." How Jews View Sin