1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,886
    Ratings:
    +408
    Deuteronomy 18:15-22 speaks of a coming Prophet. Muslims like to associate this passage with Muhammad, whilst Christians believe the Prophet is Jesus Christ.

    What do Jews believe?
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,751
    Ratings:
    +15,014
    Religion:
    Judaism
    That it does not indicate anything of the kind.
     
  3. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Messages:
    884
    Ratings:
    +129
    So why didn't the coming prophet arrive within the lifetimes of the writers of Deut 18:15-22?
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,886
    Ratings:
    +408
    The prophet was clearly of great importance and would have been recognised as 'of thy brethren' (an Israelite). Prophets from Moses to Malachi do not claim to have witnessed his coming.
     
  5. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Messages:
    884
    Ratings:
    +129
    Was David the coming prophet, given that he was even his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:6-7) although he was an adulterous murderer who said that his love with Jonathon was more wonderful than with any of his wives?
     
    #5 Mitty, Aug 21, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    13,033
    Ratings:
    +12,653
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Why could not any of these prophets, after Moses, have been the one, or ones, spoken of in these verses?
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,886
    Ratings:
    +408
    The evidence that Jesus Christ is the prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy, is, IMO, very compelling.

    Since David looks forward to another that is greater than he, does it not make sense that David is not the prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy?
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,886
    Ratings:
    +408
    I believe that all the literary prophets are used by God to look towards the one prophet who will speak, and live, God's word.

    We can pretty much dismiss the Muslim claim that Muhammad is the prophet. Muhammad was not an Israelite, and it seems pretty clear from the text that the prophet mentioned would arise from amongst the twelve tribes of Israel.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,886
    Ratings:
    +408
    What does it indicate, in your opinion?
     
  10. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Messages:
    884
    Ratings:
    +129
    But why didn't Jesus' family (including his mother and her husband) believe that he was a prophet (Matt 13:55-58 John 7:5)?

    And where does the bible say that David looked "forward to another that was greater than he", given that David was even his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:6-7), whereas Jesus only said that he was the son of a man?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,886
    Ratings:
    +408
    Deuteronomy 18:15 says this [KJV]:
    'The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him shall ye hearken;'

    This is an interesting verse because Moses speaks these words, and Moses is considered by Jews to be the greatest of the prophets. Yet Moses says to Israel 'unto him ye shall hearken;'

    Peter, in the New Testament, says, 'For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you'.[See Acts 3:20-22] Who was Peter, as a Jew, referring to?

    Stephen, before his stoning, says; 'This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear'. Who was Stephen referring to?

    John the Baptist was asked if he was 'that prophet'. He said, No. [John 1:21]

    In John 4, the woman of Samaria recognizes Jesus as that prophet. [verses 19-26]

    Men witnessing the feeding of the five thousand also believed that they have seen the prophet. [John 6:14]
     
    #11 Redemptionsong, Aug 21, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,886
    Ratings:
    +408
    As Jesus said, 'A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house'.

    In Psalm 110, David speaks of 'my Lord', who sits at the right hand of the LORD. So if this person is the LORD'S closest, then maybe it's time to rethink Psalm 2:6-7, and the addressee of verse 7?
     
  13. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Messages:
    846
    Ratings:
    +166
    Religion:
    Abrahamic
    I can only speak for myself. As written it seems like Joshua. Not that it cannot be Christ. This prophecy does not seem like a one time occurrence. I also see similarities with Moses and Ezra.

    Extremely doubtful any of Ishmael's descendants are potential candidates though
     
    #13 Iymus, Aug 21, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Messages:
    884
    Ratings:
    +129
    So why didn't Jesus' family believe that he was a prophet (Matt 13:55-58 Mark 6:4 Luke 4:24 John 7:5) and is that why he rejected them (Matt 12:46-50)?

    And did the boozers believe that he was a prophet when he performed a simple conjuring trick with some previously hidden wine to irresponsibly make the already "well drunk" boozers even drunker instead of responsibly suggesting they drink the water instead to help sober up (John 2:1-10)?

    So who was David's "my Lord", given that Psalm 110 is written in the past and present tense? And doesn't change the fact that Psalm 2:6-7 obviously refers to David who was also a king as well as his god's begotten son, given that it is written in the first person and in the past and present tense, and not in the third person and the future tense.
     
    #14 Mitty, Aug 21, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,751
    Ratings:
    +15,014
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It means what it says: that the God of the Israelites will raise up from among the Israelites a leader/guide who will be, like Moses, a prophet as opposed to a soothsayer/augur.
     
  16. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,623
    Ratings:
    +734
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    Why do you think he should have come at that time?
     
  17. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Messages:
    884
    Ratings:
    +129
    But why would Moses be referring to someone 1300 years or so later and not to a contemporary such as Joshua who took over from him?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    40,751
    Ratings:
    +15,014
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Because Moses knows that he will not be around. Pretty simple; no Jesus required - but do feel free to carry on with your proselytizing by way of rhetorical questions. :)
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    7,750
    Ratings:
    +1,228
    Religion:
    Christian
    Actually, I thought Redemptionsong's questions were pretty good. But then I believe Jesus is the one Moses was referring to.
     
  20. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Messages:
    884
    Ratings:
    +129
    That's because Jesus is an alternative spelling of Joshua who Moses was presumably referring to as his successor.
    Yeshua - Wikipedia

    Alas, unless you can show us where Moses says that the prophet won't arrive until 1300 years or so later then you are just grasping at straws.
     
    #20 Mitty, Aug 21, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...