• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
In terms of whether I speak Hebrew. In the below video is my speaking Hebrew. It is a bit of poem I once wrote.

 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I've been saying that in a somewhat different way for a long time because I know that Psalm 82 refers to others (human judges perhaps) as "gods". Elohim. So then, are you essentially saying that no english translation is good?

Yes, you are correct. NO English translation is good, even Jewish ones. At some point if you really want to know that the Tanakh is talking about you MUST read it in Hebrew. It also prevents a person from being fooled by way of translation. That is why Jews who are Torah based, even in English speaking envirionments, invest a lot in their children being able to read and understand Hebrew/Aramaic even if they don't use them as a spoken language.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Poland and Russia, Ashkenazim. In-law relatives were from Turkey, sephardic Jews. So on Yom Kippur one family would go to a Sephardic synagogue while another went to an Ashkenazic synagogue. I associated myself because of family ties to Ashkenazi Jewry.

So, were the Ashkeanazi family members of yours Reform or Conservative?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Actually, there are no "folds of Judaism." Consider it that a group 200 years ago decided they want to follow Torath Mosheh. i.e. the Torah and Halakha that came from Mount Sinai that was given by Hashem. That group wanted to keep being Jewish as a "side" culture w/o really doing what Hashem commanded at Mount Sinai in order to be able to blend into segments of European Soceity. They essentially had to call themselves something and eventually the term came up was "Reform Judaism." A later movement started in Europe and took off in America that didn't want to go as far as the "Reform Movement" and but also didn't want to do Torath Mosheh as it had been received at Mount Sinai either and eventually it became known as the "Conservative Movement."

If you research both movements, their histories and their claims, neither of them will claim to be Torath Mosheh/Judaism that came out of Mount Sinai nor will the claim to be from something that had already existed before their movements. The expectation would be that they would claim to be the original "Judaism" if anything if one were to consider if they as movements were representative of what Hashem gave at Mount Sinai. One would also expect them to be found in the most ancient Jewish communities aroune the world and they are not.

I hope that helps.
I wonder if that's the entire take of the branches(?) of Judaism. The rabbi I had when I was younger was reform, also a teacher later on in a university. My mother told me that the Chasidim were the true Jewish types, although she was a reform Jew. Sorry if I don't use the correct terms.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, you are correct. NO English translation is good, even Jewish ones. At some point if you really want to know that the Tanakh is talking about you MUST read it in Hebrew. It also prevents a person from being fooled by way of translation. That is why Jews who are Torah based, even in English speaking envirionments, invest a lot in their children being able to read and understand Hebrew/Aramaic even if they don't use them as a spoken language.
Yes, I understand. It's kind of like islam in that Muslims are encouraged to read the Quran in Arabic. So it's a problem, is it, when the Septuagint Version was made and so many in Israel during that time spoke Greek or Aramaic? It's also almost as if you're saying one cannot understand Hebrew as Moses spoke it. Which begs the question...he and the Israelites in Egypt must have spoken whatever the language there was... That's a question.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So, were the Ashkeanazi family members of yours Reform or Conservative?
Reform. Since I was given a moderation warning I'm not sure if I can make further comments on this thread as I would like to freely discuss these things. I don't pay attention or understand I suppose all the "rules" yet so forgive me if I don't straightforward answer you as well as I would like. Thanks for your responses though.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So, were the Ashkeanazi family members of yours Reform or Conservative?
When my parents' family came from Europe there was not a reform movement in their shtetl. Since they (my parents) were not taught Hebrew, however, they felt comfortable in a reform synagogue.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I wonder if that's the entire take of the branches(?) of Judaism. The rabbi I had when I was younger was reform, also a teacher later on in a university. My mother told me that the Chasidim were the true Jewish types, although she was a reform Jew. Sorry if I don't use the correct terms.

Not a problem. I had guessed that you background was most likely Reform. Not to be offensive but most of the Jews who became Christian, of any type, I have come across were 99.7% of the time from a Reform(ish), Secular background, 0.2% of the time from a Conservative background.

Om terms of what your mother told you, that is not exactly true. Hasidim are a type of Orthodox Jews who have a particular philosphical focus of Torah. Yet, you are in luck. I did a video about this topic. I may explain it better than my typing it.

 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
When my parents' family came from Europe there was not a reform movement in their shtetl. Since they (my parents) were not taught Hebrew, however, they felt comfortable in a reform synagogue.

Got it. This is exactly what I expected was the situation.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Reform. Since I was given a moderation warning I'm not sure if I can make further comments on this thread as I would like to freely discuss these things. I don't pay attention or understand I suppose all the "rules" yet so forgive me if I don't straightforward answer you as well as I would like. Thanks for your responses though.

If you would like we can move this discussion to a private discussion.

https://www.religiousforums.com/conversations/continued-discussion.261902/
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Yes, I understand. It's kind of like islam in that Muslims are encouraged to read the Quran in Arabic. So it's a problem, is it, when the Septuagint Version was made and so many in Israel during that time spoke Greek or Aramaic? It's also almost as if you're saying one cannot understand Hebrew as Moses spoke it. Which begs the question...he and the Israelites in Egypt must have spoken whatever the language there was... That's a question.

Muslims do have a practice, when they read the Quran, to try and read it in Arabic.

Yet, that is different. We as Jews have a "requirement" to prove things based ONLY on the most ancient texts in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Actually, the "proto" - Septuagint Version was made for the King of Egypt and not for the Jewish community. If you look at the "story" of the history it is as follows: The full title (Ancient Greek: Ἡ μετάφρασις τῶν Ἑβδομήκοντα, lit. 'The Translation of the Seventy') derives from the story recorded in the Letter of Aristeas that the Hebrew Torah (five books of Moses) was translated into Greek at the request of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–247 BCE) by 70 Jewish scholars or, according to later tradition, 72: six scholars from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who independently produced identical translations.

The "proto" - Septuagint was never a major factor among most Jewish communities. The Torah and the Prophets were read, in the public, and learned in Hebrew. For those who did not understand a process of "Read in Hebrew twice and once in Aramaic" was developed. I.e. read each line of the Tanakh in Hebrew twice and then translate it into Aramaic once.

Throughout Jewish history there has always been a larger number of Jews who understood Hebrew. There has never been a period that a large number of Jews didn't understand Hebrew. There were periods where "certain" Jewish communities didn't "speak" Hebrew as a spoken language, but that is different than just not knowing it. This is why here in modern state of Israel Hebrew was able to be established as the national language so quickly because a large number of communities either a) had Hebrew still as a spoken language or b) knew Hebrew as a language they understood in reading and writing.

So what I am saying is that any Jew who grew up or learned in a Torath Mosheh or Orthodox/Hasidic/Heiredi Jewish community have all the tools to understand the Hebrew of the Tanakh. Just as Moses received it from Hashem it has been transmitted from the generation throughout the generations to the modern era among Jews who have kept Torath Mosheh and also Orthodox/Hasidic/Heiredi Judaism.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not a problem. I had guessed that you background was most likely Reform. Not to be offensive but most of the Jews who became Christian, of any type, I have come across were 99.7% of the time from a Reform(ish), Secular background, 0.2% of the time from a Conservative background.

Om terms of what your mother told you, that is not exactly true. Hasidim are a type of Orthodox Jews who have a particular philosphical focus of Torah. Yet, you are in luck. I did a video about this topic. I may explain it better than my typing it.

So the question in my mind is, why weren't those Jews in Austria/Poland taught Hebrew? And mishna? I didn't know my grandparents too well they died in the U.S. but I know my father, although he went to an orthodox synagogue for shiva, did not know how to read or speak Hebrew. Some yiddish maybe. I tried learning both Yiddish and Hebrew but unfortunately my time is limited. I do, however, think Hebrew is the most beautiful language. Because it's God's language, if you get my drift.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So the question in my mind is, why weren't those Jews in Austria/Poland taught Hebrew? And mishna? I didn't know my grandparents too well they died in the U.S. but I know my father, although he went to an orthodox synagogue for shiva, did not know how to read or speak Hebrew. Some yiddish maybe. I tried learning both Yiddish and Hebrew but unfortunately my time is limited. I do, however, think Hebrew is the most beautiful language. Because it's God's language, if you get my drift.

I will answer that for you in the private discussion I started.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Muslims do have a practice, when they read the Quran, to try and read it in Arabic.

Yet, that is different. We as Jews have a "requirement" to prove things based ONLY on the most ancient texts in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Actually, the "proto" - Septuagint Version was made for the King of Egypt and not for the Jewish community. If you look at the "story" of the history it is as follows: The full title (Ancient Greek: Ἡ μετάφρασις τῶν Ἑβδομήκοντα, lit. 'The Translation of the Seventy') derives from the story recorded in the Letter of Aristeas that the Hebrew Torah (five books of Moses) was translated into Greek at the request of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–247 BCE) by 70 Jewish scholars or, according to later tradition, 72: six scholars from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who independently produced identical translations.

The "proto" - Septuagint was never a major factor among most Jewish communities. The Torah and the Prophets were read, in the public, and learned in Hebrew. For those who did not understand a process of "Read in Hebrew twice and once in Aramaic" was developed. I.e. read each line of the Tanakh in Hebrew twice and then translate it into Aramaic once.

Throughout Jewish history there has always been a larger number of Jews who understood Hebrew. There has never been a period that a large number of Jews didn't understand Hebrew. There were periods where "certain" Jewish communities didn't "speak" Hebrew as a spoken language, but that is different than just not knowing it. This is why here in modern state of Israel Hebrew was able to be established as the national language so quickly because a large number of communities either a) had Hebrew still as a spoken language or b) knew Hebrew as a language they understood in reading and writing.

So what I am saying is that any Jew who grew up or learned in a Torath Mosheh or Orthodox/Hasidic/Heiredi Jewish community have all the tools to understand the Hebrew of the Tanakh. Just as Moses received it from Hashem it has been transmitted from the generation throughout the generations to the modern era among Jews who have kept Torath Mosheh and also Orthodox/Hasidic/Heiredi Judaism.
In a shtetl, or small enough community, don't you think people went to synagogue regularly? Yet when they read from the Torah, did they understand what was being read? I'm speaking of both men and women.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
In a shtetl, or small enough community, don't you think people went to synagogue regularly? Yet when they read from the Torah, did they understand what was being read? I'm speaking of both men and women.

Not always. It depends on the Shtetl and depends on your family. Maybe they started the process of walking away from the Torah for reasons that only they knew. Maybe, their parents started the process. Maybe in the shtetl your family came from there was assimilation taking place. Maybe the shtetl they came from was having a very difficult time financially surviving and that impacated the study of Torah in your family. Maybe your grandfather found it hard to maintain his job and study Torah, maybe he decided not to study Torah.

The only ones who answer what exactly happened to your family, from you described, sounds like your grandparents. If you parents are alive you may want to ask them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not always. It depends on the Shtetl and depends on your family. Maybe they started the process of walking away from the Torah for reasons that only they knew. Maybe, their parents started the process. Maybe in the shtetl your family came from there was assimilation taking place. Maybe the shtetl they came from was having a very difficult time financially surviving and that impacated the study of Torah in your family. Maybe your grandfather found it hard to maintain his job and study Torah, maybe he decided not to study Torah.

The only ones who answer what exactly happened to your family, from you described, sounds like your grandparents. If you parents are alive you may want to ask them.
They're not alive. If it is God's will, I look forward to their coming back to life and seeing them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not always. It depends on the Shtetl and depends on your family. Maybe they started the process of walking away from the Torah for reasons that only they knew. Maybe, their parents started the process. Maybe in the shtetl your family came from there was assimilation taking place. Maybe the shtetl they came from was having a very difficult time financially surviving and that impacated the study of Torah in your family. Maybe your grandfather found it hard to maintain his job and study Torah, maybe he decided not to study Torah.

The only ones who answer what exactly happened to your family, from you described, sounds like your grandparents. If you parents are alive you may want to ask them.
When we (my parents and I) went to synagogue there was a set service. The rabbi then gave a nice little story after the set service. We were never taught what the Tanach said, only a few scriptures here and there. It's kind of like church services. Many who call themselves Christian really do not know more than what is known as the Lord's prayer. They also don't know what it means but recite it anyway. "Let your kingdom come," they say.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
We were never taught what the Tanach said, only a few scriptures here and there.

What you described is one of the hall marks of the Reform movement. Below is a quote from a Reform Movement web-page.

The Movement for Reform Judaism, Definition of Torah
Reform Judaism holds the belief that the Torah is a human document created with divine inspiration. We do not believe that the Torah, the Scroll, the Five Books of Moses were literally dictated by God to Moses on Mount Sinai – that the Torah is ‘inerrant’, ‘extra-historical’ or ‘other’ or any of the other more sophisticated terms that are now used for the same belief. The Torah contains stories and other material that were first told and then written down by our ancestors. It is therefore their experience of God – and, in that sense, Torah min haShamayim, Torah from Heaven – but not something that simply materialized from another reality without any human involvement.”
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
They're not alive. If it is God's will, I look forward to their coming back to life and seeing them.

I remember that you mentioned that. That is why there is no clear answer for you on what happened. Because the family you had who would have known took that information to the grave with them.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
What you described is one of the hall marks of the Reform movement........
There has been kind of an unspoken rule among the Jews of this forum which has enabled us to coexist in peace with one another within the confines of this internet community. We acknowledge the significant differences that exist within the movements, we acknowledge and celebrate the significant things we share with one another and, on the forum at least, we abstain from throwing things at one another.

If you are intent on bad mouthing non-Orthodox expressions of Judaism, it is going get extremely ugly very quickly.
 
Top