Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

[Ehav4Ever]

Have you ever considered that what is fleshly Israel (i.e. that of religious custom of the circumcision of the flesh) may not be the real Israel, but that it could be rather the circumcision of the heart. Now what that is, is something each one must know by being drawn to the true God.

I suggest that you start this as a different thread. I mentioned that I was leaving this thread since I provided the answer to the OP question.

In terms of considerations. Given the the Hebrew text contains no such things "fleshy Israel vs. real Israel" I would have to consider that such a statement is made up and not based on the Torah that Hashem gave to Israel/Jews at Mount Sinai.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I realize you have a different viewpoint of following the law of Moses, but in any and all cases, every year is the Atonement Day now, is it not?

What Christians think/beleive about Atonement, sin, and how one deals with it is not what Hashem gave to Israel/Jews at mount Sinai and the Christian concept is also foreign to the Hebrew texts of the Tanakh. So, if a different viewpoint can't be proven to be Torath Mosheh i.e. the Torah that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai we Jews have a directive from Hashem to stay away from it.

Again, I suggest that you start a seperate thread for this topic.

 

[YoursTrue]

I suggest that you start this as a different thread. I mentioned that I was leaving this thread since I provided the answer to the OP question.

In terms of considerations. Given the the Hebrew text contains no such things "fleshy Israel vs. real Israel" I would have to consider that such a statement is made up and not based on the Torah that Hashem gave to Israel/Jews at Mount Sinai.

I'll give scripture later. Too late now but Abraham was not Israel. Thanks it's been an interesting conversation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'll give scripture later. Too late now but Abraham was not Israel. Thanks it's been an interesting conversation.

FYI - No one claims that Avraham was an Israeli. Avraham was a Ben Noach, meaning he kept the 6 mitzvoth given to Adam and the additional one given to Noach. Further, Avraham received an additional mitzvah of Brith Milah and he started the Jewish tradition for praying every morning.

The concept you are trying to bring down is an understanding you have only from Christian concepts of their translations of their texts. It is not a concept that aligns with the concept of (ימות משיח) which is what many of the Nevi'im were talking about as the end of result of what will take place in this world for the people of Israel.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'll give scripture later. Too late now but Abraham was not Israel. Thanks it's been an interesting conversation.

Again, I suggest you start a seperate thread for the topics you are bringing up.

 

[dybmh]

OK.

Is this what you were thinking of?

Baraita of Rabbi Ishmael - Wikipedia

Maybe you saw it while flipping thru a prayer book and got confused about the two different lists of 13?

Either way, best wishes,

 

[dybmh]

... reading from the law of Moses. It's almost like Moses-worship ...

Sorry, but, no.

Not even close.

 

[dybmh]

mashiahh ben Yoseph is parternally descended from the tribe of Ephrayim and not from the tribe of Yehudah (Judah)..

Thank you for this.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thank you for this.

You are very welcome.

 

[YoursTrue]

FYI - No one claims that Avraham was an Israeli. Avraham was a Ben Noach, meaning he kept the 6 mitzvoth given to Adam and the additional one given to Noach. Further, Avraham received an additional mitzvah of Brith Milah and he started the Jewish tradition for praying every morning.

The concept you are trying to bring down is an understanding you have only from Christian concepts of their translations of their texts. It is not a concept that aligns with the concept of (ימות משיח) which is what many of the Nevi'im were talking about as the end of result of what will take place in this world for the people of Israel.

Yes, there is a true "Israel of God," not dependent upon fleshly circumcision and lineage, but that of the circumcision of the heart. As we spoke about in Deuteronomy, also Jeremiah. Not asking you to believe it, just as I don't believe the idea of the oral tradition, as if that were law and given by God.
Jeremiah 4:4 Undergo a circumcision of the heart, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem: or my wrath may come out like fire, burning so that no one is able to put it out

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord your God will give to you and to your seed a circumcision of the heart,
so that, loving him with all your heart and all your soul...[/QUOTE]

 

[YoursTrue]

FYI - No one claims that Avraham was an Israeli. Avraham was a Ben Noach, meaning he kept the 6 mitzvoth given to Adam and the additional one given to Noach. Further, Avraham received an additional mitzvah of Brith Milah and he started the Jewish tradition for praying every morning.

The concept you are trying to bring down is an understanding you have only from Christian concepts of their translations of their texts. It is not a concept that aligns with the concept of (ימות משיח) which is what many of the Nevi'im were talking about as the end of result of what will take place in this world for the people of Israel.

I never said Abraham was an Israeli. To be of the Israel of God with a circumcized heart does not mean one has to be born as a Jew or an Israeli. Abraham did not have the Law and could not aspire to observe it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes, there is a true "Israel of God," not dependent upon fleshly circumcision and lineage, but that of the circumcision of the heart. As we spoke about in Deuteronomy, also Jeremiah. Not asking you to believe it, just as I don't believe the idea of the oral tradition, as if that were law and given by God.
Jeremiah 4:4 Undergo a circumcision of the heart, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem: or my wrath may come out like fire, burning so that no one is able to put it out

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord your God will give to you and to your seed a circumcision of the heart,
so that, loving him with all your heart and all your soul...

The concept you are stating is one built by Christianity around the NT (Matthew-John, Acts, Paul's writings, Revelation) author's ideas. What you have expressed is not a Torath Mosheh concept and thus is not one that can be built when a) reading the entire text from start to finosh and b) reading it in Hebrew.

To make things easier, I have an idea. Next week I am going to start a thread where I will break down, based on Torah, why Jews don't accept

1. The NT (Matthew-John, Acts, Paul's writings, Revelation)
2. The Christian conept of Jesus
3. The Christian concept of a "messiah"
4. the Christian concepts built by the Christian Church Fathers
5. Christian apologetics.

I wil start writing it out and I post a link to the thread here.

 

[YoursTrue]

The concept you are stating is one built by Christianity around the NT (Matthew-John, Acts, Paul's writings, Revelation) author's ideas. What you have expressed is not a Torath Mosheh concept and thus is not one that can be built when a) reading the entire text from start to finosh and b) reading it in Hebrew.

To make things easier, I have an idea. Next week I am going to start a thread where I will break down, based on Torah, why Jews don't accept

1. The NT (Matthew-John, Acts, Paul's writings, Revelation)
2. The Christian conept of Jesus
3. The Christian concept of a "messiah"
4. the Christian concepts built by the Christian Church Fathers
5. Christian apologetics.

I wil start writing it out and I post a link to the thread here.

No problem. And Hindus and Muslims don't really accept the Jewish version of things either. So...tell you what I was thinking lately. When Moses went before Pharaoh he told Pharaoh what Jehovah God told him. Hashem in your case. And Pharaoh said, Who is Jehovah (Yhvh or yhwh) that I should listen to Him? And what Moses might have told him? You'll find out? Did YHWH ever speak to Pharaoh? No, you know the answer. It's no. Jehovah never spoke to Pharaoh.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No problem. And Hindus and Muslims don't really accept the Jewish version of things either. So...tell you what I was thinking lately. When Moses went before Pharaoh he told Pharaoh what Jehovah God told him. Hashem in your case. And Pharaoh said, Who is Jehovah (Yhvh or yhwh) that I should listen to Him? And what Moses might have told him? You'll find out? Did YHWH ever speak to Pharaoh? No, you know the answer. It's no. Jehovah never spoke to Pharaoh.

Just FYI. The "Hindus and Muslims, etc." don't accept the Jewish version doesn't work on us. They can do and beleive what they like and what makes sense to them.

It doesn't matter to us who does or doesn't accept the Jewish version of things. As I mentinoed before we don't have a missionary concept and we don't have a "lake of fire for non-beleivers concept." You may want to look for a better arguement.

 

[YoursTrue]

Just FYI. The "Hindus and Muslims, etc." don't accept the Jewish version doesn't work on us. They can do and beleive what they like and what makes sense to them.

It doesn't matter to us who does or doesn't accept the Jewish version of things. As I mentinoed before we don't have a missionary concept and we don't have a "lake of fire for non-beleivers concept." You may want to look for a better arguement.

Based on your answer I can see a sort of selfishness, I don't know how else to put it.
So why are Jewish missionaries looking for Jews? There are chabads in certain areas of the United States that do indeed look for Jews. Not non-Jews. But they do look for those born Jews apparently seeking to bring them back or bring them to a more religious life than they have. Why do you feel that is?

P.S. if someone else's religion is ok because it makes sense to them, I wonder if you think it makes sense to the God you claim to worship.

 

[YoursTrue]

Just FYI. The "Hindus and Muslims, etc." don't accept the Jewish version doesn't work on us. They can do and beleive what they like and what makes sense to them.

It doesn't matter to us who does or doesn't accept the Jewish version of things. As I mentinoed before we don't have a missionary concept and we don't have a "lake of fire for non-beleivers concept." You may want to look for a better arguement.

Not sure what you think the lake of fire is. Because Solomon wrote that the dead know nothing. Eccl 9:5. I go with that. Fire is often used in a symbolic sense.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Based on your answer I can see a sort of selfishness, I don't know how else to put it.
So why are Jewish missionaries looking for Jews? There are chabads in certain areas of the United States that do indeed look for Jews. Not non-Jews. But they do look for those born Jews apparently seeking to bring them back or bring them to a more religious life than they have. Why do you feel that is?

P.S. if someone else's religion is ok because it makes sense to them, I wonder if you think it makes sense to the God you claim to worship.

The answer to this is very simple. Hashem, in the Torah, never gave a directive that Jews were required to make the world or convince the world to be Jewish. From the Torah, the requirement for the non-Jewish world is to keep the 7 Mizvoth of Noah. (6 Mitzvoth from Adam and 1 from Noah).

The additional mitzvah that Avraham received for brith milah was never a "requirement" for the rest of the world to take on UNLESS they wanted to of their own free will. That is why one does not find that the only time Avraham sounght out people to join him was in Haran when he was about to enter into Kanaan. After that one finds that he and his children were verty particular about who could even marry into their family.

From the Jewish mesorah Avraham and his descendents had no problem talking about Hashem to the nations, and explaining the 7 mitzvoth but they did not go out and try to convert people to them.

So, when the Torah was given at Mount Sinai there was further no requirement for non-Jews to covert and become like Jews. Thus, the Torah describes a non-Jew who is allowed to live in the land of Israel as a (גר תושב) Geir Toshav i.e. a non-Jew who has taken on/accepts the 7 mitzvoth and thus is allowed to live among Jews in the land of Israel when there is a Torah based country.

So, if a person were to complain that we Jews are not out in the world trying to convert the world they must take that up with Hashem because at the end of the day a non-Jew who keeps the 7 Mitzvoth of Noah has a place in the world to come and is pleasing to Hashem. Even those non-Jews who do not and who have not followed what the Source of creation has established to be the truth do not go and burn in a lake of fire when they die. This concept is not found in the Hebrew Tanakh. Further, there are some people in the world who don't want to keep the 7 mitzvoth so we have no command to force them to do so. That is between them and Hashem.

Further to the above, for the last 1,800 years or so MOST of the non-Jewish world has not wanted to be Jewish; with some exceptions such as the Berbers of North Africa and the Himyar empire in southern Arabia/Yemen. The reason being that when Jews were dispersed throughout the nations and disposed in many places most people would not want to join what they perceive to be the losing side. Jewish law even takes this into account in stated that convesions cannot be done for the sake of getting a better situation when Jews are doing well but must be done for the sake of Hashem and the truth; or to say the realization that the Torah is the truth.

It is thus the job of every Jew to stand up for the truth, to live the truth, and the prophets claim that by doing so as a nation in the land of Israel one day the "Era of mashiahh" will happen. It is for this reason the Torah is very clear that Jews have a mitzvah/requirement to try and return every Jew to the path of the Torah; IF one is able to. Thus, organizations like Chabad, Esh HaTorah, Shofar, Hidabroot, etc. have been working to try and show Jews who were lost to the Torah the way back; if they so desire. This mitzvah in Hebrew is called, (הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך) and is found int he Torah in Wayiqra 19:18 and 19:17.

Lastly, there have been moments in history where non-Jews have either become Noachides, those who keep the 7 mitzvoth, because of Jewish influence or inspiration and also some have converted to the Torah for the same reasons.

For more information, see the following videos.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Not sure what you think the lake of fire is. Because Solomon wrote that the dead know nothing. Eccl 9:5. I go with that. Fire is often used in a symbolic sense.

Since we Jews don't have a lake of fire concept for un-beleivers concept, only those people who hold by such a concept can explain what they think it is. It isn't up to Jews to define what others think. Yet, I think enough people reading the statement have heard some people from various religions claim that such a thing exists.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As promised I have created a thread where I will detail some very simple reasons why Jews don't beleive in Jesus and the Christian concept of messiah.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

 

[YoursTrue]

Since we Jews don't have a lake of fire concept for un-beleivers concept, only those people who hold by such a concept can explain what they think it is. It isn't up to Jews to define what others think. Yet, I think enough people reading the statement have heard some people from various religions claim that such a thing exists.

Why do you bring up lake of fire? Is it a Jewish concept and moreover, what do you think it is?