Man to Man... or Woman

[Piculet]

There are hundreds of divisions in Islam and some have blood hate of other Muslims of different sects beginning with Shiite and Sunni divisions,

Those are divisions among muslims. But the religion is straight, unless your mind is crooked.

 

[Left Coast]

I think they do all know that there is only one Islam.

Oddly they cant agree on which one.

Nails are cut on Fridays.

So it's acceptable to "change God's creation"...on Fridays?

 

[BSM1]

Where does the OT speak about gender re-assignment surgery?

Can you imagine the procedure...

 

[SomeRandom]

Male and female differ by an entire chromosome; X or Y. A chromosome can have thousands of genes and not one or two. Sex is signed by nature and an entire chromosome of DNA. This is why sexual choice is a fad and pathology and is therefore unnatural. Religion does not promote unnatural behavior. This is the role of the left.

Say I thought I was a bird, and wanted surgery to add wings, would this be OK? Would it be called natural, even if my DNA is human and not that of bird? This is the same thing, but it differs only by less support propaganda based on an emperors new clothes fad.

The data still shows that those who transform sex, to meets the needs of the fad, have unusually high suicide rates Being unnatural will catch up to you, even if the mindless crowd applauds the effort.

“Role of the left.” Tell that to at least 3,000 years of the Hijra in India
https://www.trp.org.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/ARSS-Vol.4-No.1-Jan-June-2015-pp.17-19.pdf
I remember learning about trans individuals through religious education as a kid. A very “prickly” history, it seems.

I’d be willing to wager there was some form of this throughout the centuries. Though weirdly my own (admittedly) lazy research usually ties it in with Eunuchs. Go figure.

Also your claim about Suicide post surgery seems at odds with the mental health claim, as far as I’m aware anyway

Quality of Life Following Male-To-Female Sex Reassignment Surgery

But you know, maybe if society weren’t such jerks about it, maybe trans people wouldn’t feel so sucky?

 

[SomeRandom]

This is a very sensitive issue, especially now when gender issues are out in the open and freely discussed. We can understand the painful dilemma of those trapped in the body of the opposite gender that, in their head means that they are offended by their own body. Their biological gender feels all wrong.

In a world saturated with chemicals that can act as endocrine disruptors we can understand how these might affects hormones and cause all manner of problems. It is good to consider what might be at the base of this increasingly common problem.

I thought this article was informative....
Dirty Dozen Endocrine Disruptors

The EWG? Really? Aren’t they are a group of pseudoscientific pedlars that actual experts despise? Like I dunno, Greenpeace or whatever. I mean I like healthy clean environmentalism as much as the next hippie. But let’s go with actual science instead of fear mongering. Assuming the allegations are true. I ain’t an American after all and this is just what I found on Google:
Come on, Deej. I expect better from you.

Environmental Working Group (EWG) - Activist FactsActivist Facts

 

[eik]

Isn't the body just a vessel for the soul/spirit so we can experience physical life?
When we die the body is what actually dies, the rest of us (soul, spirit) is what go on, or?

I believe so, and for this reason: 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 (abstain from all forms of immorality) and extended to forbidding tatoos and "cutting yourself" Leviticus 19:27-28.

 

[eik]

Fortunately in most Western countries we do not have Theocracy rule of ancient reliigons, and we do not stone people to death for deviations and infractions. Citing scripture thousands of years old can justify slavery, rape, and ethnic cleansing also.

If you view a 50% divorce rate as a good thing, and moral delinquency everywhere, I will exercise my right to disagree with you.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman, and take measures to reach that goal, such as by taking drugs to change his facial and body features etc.?
I was not able to view this video, but the facial structure of the person in the video image just got me thinking on this.
Your thoughts...

In Christ there is neither male nor female, making any gender-based rule silly and useless.

I would say 18-21 years old but even those ages seem to be underdeveloped for making such drastic and permanent changes to one's life.

My only concern is that puberty tends to occur sooner than that. If hormones are going to be an issue, then it seems medically important to catch that when it happens.

No, never OK, because it involves premedidated gender fraud.

I'm amazed at how amazingly wrong that is. Trans people and intersex people were ASSIGNED genders by doctors who did not ask the newborn how they felt about the matter. Thus, the only ones who could be accused of fraud were the people who assigned the gender in the first place.

That's purely a subjective matter and clearly not true if the phenotype includes such things as menstruation etc.

I find it funny that other mythologies seem to acknowledge these people exist but because the bible is written by people with axes to grind about some misguided sense of purity, suddenly what happens in nature all the time doesn't exist.

It is simply not possible for a man to become a biological woman and vice versa.

They can in other stories. Has it occurred to you that Jesus mentions eunuchs who were "born that way" because maybe he was one?

Think of it this way, trimming eyebrows is haram because it changes God's creation.

I had no idea God was essentially as emotionally stable as a petulant suburban cheerleader.

 

[eik]

Another way to put it, and readers forgive the comparison, if someone has breast cancer and needs both her breasts removed what is the difference between that surgical procedure for physical illness and one to relieve ones psychological distress by taking off her breasts just the same for psychological illness?

What you regard as "psychological distress" I classify as demon possession. By your logic, you would walk right on by someone about to jump off a bridge on the basis that it's their right to relieve their psychological distress by killing themselves. You don't expel demons by doing what they demand but by resisting their demands. "Resist the devil" James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:9, 1 Corinthians 6:18,2 Timothy 2:22 &etc.

 

[nPeace]

No, never OK, because it involves premedidated gender fraud. People should not be permitted to dishonestly misrepresent their biologically given gender to society at large. If they want to do it within the confines of their own homes, they should be permitted but only if they are prepared to be restricted to their own homes to prevent a fraud on society.

Hey elk. what i like about this comment... the highlight on the aspect of fraud.
This is not considered by the majority, but identity fraud is an actual crime, but only in relation to that aspect that interests government.
However, identity fraud affects all, including in the area where a man cannot tell that someone (who appears to be a female) he is attracted to is actually not a woman, but a man... and vice versa.
Dishonesty takes many forms, but apparently there are some forms, that are accepted by the masses of society.

PS Edit
@elk I also like the fact that you acknowledged, that everyone is free to make their own choices, but accept consequences for those choices.
So, just as public nudity in some land is a crime, considered indecent exposure, but one is free to run around naked in their home, if they want to, laws related to gender fraud, can also be made, and enforced.
This clearly is a case of political hypocrisy, isn't it. "In God we trust."? Really?

 

[Left Coast]

If you view a 50% divorce rate as a good thing, and moral delinquency everywhere, I will exercise my right to disagree with you.

And if you view a 50% divorce rate as morally equivalent to legal slavery, I will exercise my right to disagree with you. And thankful so will the vast majority of Westerners.

 

[Rival]

What you regard as "psychological distress" I classify as demon possession.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you regard as "psychological distress" I classify as demon possession. By your logic, you would walk right on by someone about to jump off a bridge on the basis that it's their right to relieve their psychological distress by killing themselves. You don't expel demons by doing what they demand but by resisting their demands. "Resist the devil" James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:9, 1 Corinthians 6:18,2 Timothy 2:22 &etc.

How in the world did you compare jumping from depression to changing ones body because of body/mind incongruency?

Do you believe chronic depression is demon possession??

I can't follow your logic of taking one's own life compared to changing ones body.

Huh?

 

[nPeace]

Why is this in "Religious debates"?

Please tell me where you think it should be... on the forums, that is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You should see my face

 

[nPeace]

It's up to the person, not other people.

I asked if it's okay. i don't think that has anything to do with what one decides to do.

is it okay to rape a woman or child? is is okay to bugger a cow? is it okay to have an affair with a married person? Is it okay to steal bread to feed one's hungry stomach?

Whether one thinks it's okay or not to do these things does not deny anyone the freedom of choice.

This thread is not about whether one has a choice or not.

 

[nPeace]

This is a very sensitive issue, especially now when gender issues are out in the open and freely discussed. We can understand the painful dilemma of those trapped in the body of the opposite gender that, in their head means that they are offended by their own body. Their biological gender feels all wrong.

In a world saturated with chemicals that can act as endocrine disruptors we can understand how these might affects hormones and cause all manner of problems. It is good to consider what might be at the base of this increasingly common problem.

I thought this article was informative....
Dirty Dozen Endocrine Disruptors

My sister, there is a reason people are admitted to mental asylums; why people admit themselves to AA, and why people go to the doctor, when things just aren't right.

You are right though. It is a sensitive issue. in hindsight, I should not have raised it. I guess it's to late to pull it now though.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman, and take measures to reach that goal, such as by taking drugs to change his facial and body features etc.?
I was not able to view this video, but the facial structure of the person in the video image just got me thinking on this.
Your thoughts...

Of course it's fine. I did it.

 

[nPeace]

By "point" I meant the point I made about mispresentation of gender. As the law in Deut 22:5 is spiritual it is extendable to every conceivable misrepresentation of gender including "gender re-assignment surgery" (a misrepresentation in itself). In any case Deut 22:5 would in every case of "transgenderism" have to be literally broken on numerous occasions before surgery was ever contemplated. Deut 22:5 inhibits the thin end of the wedge here.

You beat me to it.
Obviously there is a principle involved in that scripture.

 

[viole]

By "point" I meant the point I made about mispresentation of gender. As the law in Deut 22:5 is spiritual it is extendable to every conceivable misrepresentation of gender including "gender re-assignment surgery" (a misrepresentation in itself). In any case Deut 22:5 would in every case of "transgenderism" have to be literally broken on numerous occasions before surgery was ever contemplated. Deut 22:5 inhibits the thin end of the wedge here.

So, what Deuteronomy forbids, we should also forbid?

Ciao

- viole