Making sense of the Pandemic

[dad]

Important to get that last sentence in, of course.

Right. If people did not know history and Scripture and prophesy, they might not have access to a clue about what might be wrong here and what could be happening.

 

[Windwalker]

Not when God is entered into the picture. In Egypt, they were getting plagues because they needed to obey what God said. The frogs were not the result of living near the Nile, or the locusts a result of living there. Etc. Nature was tweaked, to say the least.

This pandemic has a natural explanation. Global warming also has a natural explanation. Both are due to human activities over exploiting the planet God gave us because of greed. The sin behind it all, is greed. This is known as us "reaping what we sow", or karma as others call it. It is otherwise known as natural consequences.

I don't think so. At first, I was hearing those claims I think put out by the Chinese government. Then I started to hear claims it might be some sort of bioweapon mistake. Etc. Who really knows?

Scientists really know. It is natural. It is not a bioweapon. COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin

The analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

"By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes," said Kristian Andersen, PhD, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research and corresponding author on the paper.
​

You can really know. We do really know. Now you do as well.

Looking at the effect on the world, we have to admit it is life-changing and worldwide. Nothing happens by accident from a Christian perspective.

Nothing happens by accident from understanding the laws of natural consequences. You may call those divine judgments if you wish. But we can directly see the cause and effect relationships. Call those the law of karma, or 'reaping what you sow' in Christian terms.

Yet I hesitated to think that such a horrible event could possibly be allowed or even sent by God. The people I heard suggesting this seemed harsh and religious and judgmental and even hypocritical to me. After all, we are all in danger of getting this and dying. The churches were no exception.

Now here you go. You do see the problem in viewing these things as God's punishment. This virus is not personal. It will take down saint and sinner alike. It is an impersonal killer that passes no judgement at all in who it infects or kills. Yes, I have always found it hypocritical for Christians to say natural disasters are God's punishment on us.

This could make sense though if nations were being judged, not so much individuals. There is nothing that keeps believers from getting this also and dying, except the usual praying. Having Christians die also in no way means that this could not be a judment on the world.

It actually is a judgment on all of us, if you want to look at it like that. We are responsible for the conditions in which these disasters happen. We mostly all participate in the system through our consumption demands. So, everyone goes down on the ships, when the captains steer them into the rocks.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Not sure this is true. The origins seem to have been an illegal wild animal market. That is, where animal species not normally consumed are consumed by some for whatever reasons.

It certainly sounds plausible, but I'm still not sure that's exactly what happened. I've been thinking about the possibility of a coverup at the biolab amidst flu-like weapon manufacturing there, since this wasn't the first wet market ever. Or maybe something in between those two ideas, like tested animals being served at the market.

 

[Windwalker]

Well we probably agree that we are taking too many liberties with our planet even if we don't agree as to the reasons why we do such.

I was going to say, the real reasons why we do can mainly be reduced down to greed. Over-consumption, is really, thinking about it, death by gluttony.

 

[Windwalker]

It certainly sounds plausible, but I'm still not sure that's exactly what happened. I've been thinking about the possibility of a coverup at the biolab amidst flu-like weapon manufacturing there, since this wasn't the first wet market ever. Or maybe something in between those two ideas, like tested animals being served at the market.

COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin

"The analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

"By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes," said Kristian Andersen, PhD, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research and corresponding author on the paper."​

 

[bobhikes]

Making sense of the coronavirus

When I learned of some recent examples of sex change operations involving children as young as six or seven in some cases, I felt an anger that I believe God also feels. There are many societal sins in these times that all reach biblically epic proportions. If the west and kingdoms of this world have crossed a line in the sand with God what would we expect to see?.

'
You think God would of been madder when people that claim to be his disciples raped children and women. You know all those priests and ministers brought up on charges after years of abuse and being hidden by other disciples claiming to worship said god. I guess not though because no such virus was found when they were found.

 

[dad]

This pandemic has a natural explanation. Global warming also has a natural explanation. Both are due to human activities over exploiting the planet God gave us because of greed. The sin behind it all, is greed. This is known as us "reaping what we sow", or karma as others call it. It is otherwise known as natural consequences.

One could try and say this was true of the plagues of Egypt or the end time plagues coming in the final years of man's rule on earth. The problem is neither of those is natural whether or not nature is involved.

Scientists really know. It is natural. It is not a bioweapon. COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin

That could well be. Nevertheless, it has nothing to do with whether this could be action from God on dealing with nations.

Nothing happens by accident from understanding the laws of natural consequences. You may call those divine judgments if you wish. But we can direct see the cause and effect realiations. Call those the law of karma, or 'reaping what you sow' in Christian terms.

The question is what is the consequence a result of. If God was moving to deal with wickedness in nations then we could not call it natural evolution at all. Nor would it be true that man was getting some sort of karma for some supposed infractions against mother earth.

Now here you go. You do see the problem in viewing these things as God's punishment. This virus is not personal. It will take down saint and sinner alike. It is an impersonal killer that passes no judgement at all in who it kills. Yes, I have always found it hypocritical for Christians to say natural disasters are God's punishment on us.

If it is a national judgment then it is not personal. That is correct, and this was stated in the OP.

It actually is a judgment on all of us, if you want to look at it like that

No. I don't believe that and God doesn't work that way.

. We are responsible for the conditions in which these disasters happen.

In the sense that nations have engaged in evil unnatural sins against God and His nature that are right in Scripture, yes. Not in some undefined supposed eco crimes imagined by people that do not know the creator exists.

Everyone goes down on the ships, when the captains steer them into the rocks.

The ships in question here are nations.

 

[Windwalker]

But preferably in the comfort of their own homes - unlike these people, who are likely adding to the problem?

25,000 people gather for Covid-19 prayer session in Bangladesh sparking outcry

Oh good Lord! Are they insane? Oh my god.

 

[dad]

'
You think God would of been madder when people that claim to be his disciples raped children and women.

Right. However, that would fall under the category of individual judgment. Or perhaps some action He may take against certain guilty denominations etc. I would even add that to the cup of iniquity that includes the latest bits. The issue is whether the cumulative wickedness has now filled the cup to the point where God has to move. It does not mean that the only reason He had to step in was because of the latest horrible vile sins. It would mean that a line was crossed, or a degree or amount of wickedness was reached on a national level.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think the OP cited wicked practices of many sorts and suggested it could have been the one that pushed it over the top. In other words, the little drop of water filled the cup to the brim.

I like, "One rotten apple spoils the barrel".

 

[Windwalker]

One could try and say this was true of the plagues of Egypt or the end time plagues coming in the final years of man's rule on earth. The problem is neither of those is natural whether or not nature is involved.

I wouldn't say they weren't. I don't think I really see a difference. Divine law, when broken, has natural consequences. When we do not love, but kill, there are consequences that follow, either directly or indirectly through other agents. It is still reaping what you sow, and that is in truth a divine consequence of the law of karma. Everything that happens in the world, for good or for bad, reaps from that, good for good, bad for bad.

The question is what is the consequence a result of.

Bottom line, it's the consequence of greed. Over-exploiting our planet, treating the rest of nature as here for man to overconsume.

If God was moving to deal with wickedness in nations then we could not call it natural evolution at all. Nor would it be true that man was getting some sort of karma for some supposed infractions against mother earth.

The story has God placing man in the garden to be responsible stewards of the planet. So, the fact that he has failed to live up to that, one could say that is part of the design that it should fail to be a place where he can live safely.

And that is a divine judgment. This works, that doesn't. Don't do that. You did? Oops, sorry. The judgment happens because we violate God's ways. That is judgement. We invite the judgment of the whole planet upon ourselves.

If it is a national judgment then it is not personal. That is correct, and this was stated in the OP.
No. I don't believe that and God doesn't work that way.

I don't believe God thinks in terms of favored nation states anymore. That's why Christianity is supposed to be beyond borders, where there is "neither Greek nor Jew, but all are one in Christ". I don't see God in terms of punishing nations, like you read in the OT stories.

In the sense that nations have engaged in evil unnatural sins against God and His nature that are right in Scripture, yes. Not in some undefined supposed eco crimes imagined by people that do not know the creator exists.

I think we should do better than think in terms of nations, and rather think in terms of collective responsibility as stewards of the planet, and each other, regardless of national places of birth. "Neither Jew nor Greek," as the Bible teaches.

The ships in question here are nations.

But the captains are the leaders. We should consider throwing the unqualified captains overboard and save ourselves now. Maybe God will listen.

 

[dad]

I like, "One rotten apple spoils the barrel".

Well, in history there came a certain point when Israel reached a degree of sin and wicked behavior that God had to judge them. Over and over this was the pattern. In the case of Moses and the children of God in Egypt, again we see this same pattern. I prophesy about the finals days of man, it is the same thing.
So we do have a few known factors here. We know that nations are going against God and what He commands for man in Scripture in a big big big big way. We know that many millions of people feel that we are very close to that end period of the time of man's rule on earth. We do know a very different government for all the world will emerge just before that time also.
It is very reasoned and educated guessing that this could be the road into that time.
If it is God moving and taking action, then the current plague will not be the end of it by any stretch of the imagination, but only the start. Time will tell.

 

[aeon6]

You ALL continue to worship god as some external justification of your natural shortcomings.
Until that changes, expect more of what you do not want. To enumerate them for you would bore to tears.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Making sense of the coronavirus

When I learned of some recent examples of sex change operations involving children as young as six or seven in some cases, I felt an anger that I believe God also feels. There are many societal sins in these times that all reach biblically epic proportions. If the west and kingdoms of this world have crossed a line in the sand with God what would we expect to see?
I would expect to see action. In the future, in bible prophesies, we see that nations receive judgments of God trying to make them repent from their evil ways. In the past, we saw God taking action in Egypt and sending judgments to force Pharoah to get the point and change his ways or at least to let God's children go.
In both these cases, a successive series of judgments from God followed each other until the nations were broken as a result of not heeding His message and judgments.
If this is the case with the plague that has come on the world then the only remedy would be to cease from the wicked things that brought it on and to cry out to God. The judgments in the bible were on nations in these cases for the most part, rather than individuals. There will come a time when God cleans up the books for all people, but that time was not in the past and was not in the last day prophesies of the bible.
Knowing that certain levels of sin and evil practices are bound to result in God stepping in, the question with the modern plague arises, is this a judgment from God? If it is, then the only way to stop it is for nations of the world to change drastically. If they did not, then what would be expected if this were a message to nations from God, is that even clearer messages via judgments would follow and there would be an end to the world order of the day.
We do know that a new world order will come to exist in the very final days of man's rule on earth according to bible prophesy. If this plague is from God then it would mean that we are entering that final period very soon. (unless nations cease sex-change operations, abortions, and some of the sins outlined in Scripture that have now reached heaven).
For many bible believers, this would make sense as to why such a horrible plague was allowed to enter the world today. One result of the virus has been that hospitals and medical systems have been, and will increasingly be overburdened. Nonessential surgeries are being canceled. If the plague was here as a result of the aforementioned reasons, that would seem to make sense that one of the first casualties of the event was the medical system.
Looking for a vaccine or cure would not work, because if the message was from God, some other event would follow that would accomplish the purpose anyhow. The only solution would be to change the ways of guilty nations and to repent.
The coming days will reveal if this scenario is correct or not. In any case, I would recommend that nations pray, and ask forgiveness and healing.

AS always, I'm fascinated by the assertions that people make in such forums as these -- especially those with a religious axe to grind.

Sex changes in children? Ain't happening, @dad , unless you've authorized for some of your own. (Yes, there was one once, became a famous book, but that change was undesired and the result of a botched circumcision -- a practice instituted by your God, by the way. David Reimer - Wikipedia)

But you're mention of Pharaoh and the plagues of Egypt bring up one point that every Christian I've ever met -- or at least the ones who love this sort of "God's punishment" argument -- shows that when He wants it, God has absolutely perfect aim! He can, and did, kill very, very selectively. In Egypt, only the first born, and only the first born who didn't have lamb's blood painted on the their door posts and lintels.

But I guess God isn't interested in good aim, when a good, random killing spree of innocent a guilty alike should get the message across. Bahh! I couldn't worship such a god with somebody else's knees!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You ALL continue to worship god as some external justification of your natural shortcomings.
Until that changes, expect more of what you do not want. To enumerate them for you would bore to tears.

Let he who is without natural shortcomings throw the first curse, please.

 

[dad]

I wouldn't say they weren't. I don't think I really see a difference. Divine law, when broken, has natural consequences. When we do not love, but kill, there are consequences that follow, either directly or indirectly through other agents. It is still reaping what you sow, and that is in truth a divine consequence of the law of karma. Everything that happens in the world, for good or for bad, reaps from that, good for good, bad for bad.


Bottom line, it's the consequence of greed. Over-exploiting our planet, treating the rest of nature as here for man to overconsume.

NOT if this is the judgment from the God of the bible. He spells out exactly what is good and evil and certain levels of wickedness are not permitted to go on without consequences. While greed is certainly a bad thing, there has been lots of that around always. The sorts of signature sins that resulted in God moving were the sort Sodom and Gomorrah engaged in. The sort the pre-flood world engaged in. Some of those sins mentioned in the bible are child sacrifice, (abortion) and great violence (no explanation needed here) and etc.

The story has God placing man in the garden to be responsible stewards of the planet. So, the fact that he has failed to live up to that, one could say that is part of the design that it should fail to be a place where he can live safely.

Well, being a slob is a result of sin. Departing from God does end up with all sorts of bad results. The type of sins that result in God stepping in however have historically been sins of rejecting God the creator and offending children and such.

And that is a divine judgment. This works, that doesn't. Don't do that. You did? Oops, sorry. The judgment happens because we violate God's ways. That is judgement. We invite the judgment of the whole planet upon ourselves.

The God whose ways are violated would be the God that judges nations here. The God of Israel. WE are not talking about failure to recycle here.

I don't believe God thinks in terms of favored nation states anymore. That's why Christianity is supposed to be beyond borders, where there is "neither Greek nor Jew, but all are one in Christ". I don't see God in terms of punishing nations, like you read in the OT stories.

Then you are wrong. Nations are mentioned in the final days.

I think we should do better than think in terms of nations, and rather think in terms of collective responsibility as stewards of the planet, and each other, regardless of national places of birth. "Neither Jew nor Greek," as the Bible teaches.

Well, the final government may do some of that. The problem is that it will be headed by Satan. That is one reason some Christians have wanted to stall it off or fight it. They know what is coming. However what will be will be, and no man can stop it.

But the captains are the leaders. We should consider throwing the unqualified captains overboard and save ourselves now. Maybe God will listen.

I would suspect that in most cases, people in nations are largely to blame rather than just the wicked leaders they put in. But leaders do bear responsibility also.

 

[dfnj]

Making sense of the coronavirus
When I learned of some recent examples of sex change operations involving children as young as six or seven in some cases, I felt an anger that I believe God also feels. There are many societal sins in these times that all reach biblically epic proportions. If the west and kingdoms of this world have crossed a line in the sand with God what would we expect to see?
I would expect to see action. In the future, in bible prophesies, we see that nations receive judgments of God trying to make them repent from their evil ways. In the past, we saw God taking action in Egypt and sending judgments to force Pharoah to get the point and change his ways or at least to let God's children go.
In both these cases, a successive series of judgments from God followed each other until the nations were broken as a result of not heeding His message and judgments.
If this is the case with the plague that has come on the world then the only remedy would be to cease from the wicked things that brought it on and to cry out to God. The judgments in the bible were on nations in these cases for the most part, rather than individuals. There will come a time when God cleans up the books for all people, but that time was not in the past and was not in the last day prophesies of the bible.
Knowing that certain levels of sin and evil practices are bound to result in God stepping in, the question with the modern plague arises, is this a judgment from God? If it is, then the only way to stop it is for nations of the world to change drastically. If they did not, then what would be expected if this were a message to nations from God, is that even clearer messages via judgments would follow and there would be an end to the world order of the day.
We do know that a new world order will come to exist in the very final days of man's rule on earth according to bible prophesy. If this plague is from God then it would mean that we are entering that final period very soon. (unless nations cease sex-change operations, abortions, and some of the sins outlined in Scripture that have now reached heaven).
For many bible believers, this would make sense as to why such a horrible plague was allowed to enter the world today. One result of the virus has been that hospitals and medical systems have been, and will increasingly be overburdened. Nonessential surgeries are being canceled. If the plague was here as a result of the aforementioned reasons, that would seem to make sense that one of the first casualties of the event was the medical system.
Looking for a vaccine or cure would not work, because if the message was from God, some other event would follow that would accomplish the purpose anyhow. The only solution would be to change the ways of guilty nations and to repent.
The coming days will reveal if this scenario is correct or not. In any case, I would recommend that nations pray, and ask forgiveness and healing.

Superstitious nonsense, pareidolia, and everything that is wrong with religion in today's world. Too many people are pretending they know the mind of God or pretend they are speaking for God. This is why religion is on the decline.

 

[dad]

AS always, I'm fascinated by the assertions that people make in such forums as these -- especially those with a religious axe to grind.

Sex changes in children? Ain't happening, @dad , unless you've authorized for some of your own.

Where you been?

Examples

Sex-change treatment for kids on the rise

B.C. father’s attempt to stop child’s gender transition tossed out by appeal court

But you're mention of Pharaoh and the plagues of Egypt bring up one point that every Christian I've ever met -- or at least the ones who love this sort of "God's punishment" argument -- shows that when He wants it, God has absolutely perfect aim! He can, and did, kill very, very selectively. In Egypt, only the first born, and only the first born who didn't have lamb's blood painted on the their door posts and lintels.

Very true. But I would ask if denominations were basically part of the world to a large degree in some cases or not. If they are, how would they be totally exempt? Then there is the bigger plan. If this was a judgment of God (notice how I always ask if, rather than say it is definitely the case?) that led into the end time government, we would have the Rapture coming to take believers away with perfect aim soon!

 

[dad]

Superstitious nonsense, pareidolia, and everything that is wrong with religion in today's world. Too many people are pretending they know the mind of God or speak for God. This is why religion is on the decline.

No one need to pretend, we have it in black and white.

 

[aeon6]

I keep saying, why is your omnipotent and omniscient god forsaking you?
As long as your god is externalized, fathom more dissent. Really the only reason I find Xtians daft and ignorant is because they solicit.